Tent Heater options – candle/alcohol/propane, what to use?

[Christoph Blank]

I will stay with propane/butane as it seems to have the least CO output.

Waiting for the Kovea Fireball and CO meter to arrive now to start testing :)

[DAN-Y]

Options, always good to have “options” :-)

[Christoph Blank]

@Richard Nisley, just out of interest, as you take this from a rather scientific perspective: What would be/is your preferred solo winter shelter? Optimizing warmth/weight?

[Richard Nisley]

Christoph,

Based on your original objectives, your existing shelter in combination with a Kovea Fireball, in inverted gas cylinder mode, will be more than satisfactory. Your CO meter will verify the safety of that configuration while at home and could be safely left behind on trips to save weight.

Although it is not required for your original objectives, most double wall tents that rely of inner fabric porosity and/or side vents for inner tent oxygen will lose less heat (primarily the convective component). I have not tested the Kovea Fireball CO accumulation in that configuration for any tent and you would need to verify it with your meter in advance of a trip. In the absence of side vents, the inner tent porosity would need to be 70 – 75 CFM for a balance of safety and warmth retention . I have verified that the TNF and Hilleberg mountaineering tents provide that level of inner breathability.  I have not tested other brands for this feature.

[Christoph Blank]

@Richard Nisley, I meant, leaving at home the fireball, for a more efficient setup to need less additional fuel/energy. I would not use the fireball in such an isolated tent. Maybe something smaller, like a candle if necessary, as you pointed out in another post.

[Christoph Blank]

One thing I noticed is that 4-season seems to be defined through stability with snow loads – not double wall or isolation. I think there are quite a lot of double wall tents that do not qualify as 4-season due to the above definition, but isolate as good.

[Roger Caffin]

You also get cheap ‘double wall’ tents which are nothing more than pop-ups with a netting inner and a throw-over fly. I am sure they have their place: the living room floor might be one.

Cheers

 

[Christoph Blank]

That’s right, and that’s also why it’s quite hard to compare tents. I was quite confused reading about a double-wall tent and finding out it only has a netting inner..

It seems the weight (and of course fabric for the experts) is a pretty good indicator for isolation. I guess that there are lightweight “double wall” tents that are less warm than a better single wall tent.
For example there are many “expedition grade” single wall tents (Rab, Black Diamond, etc), single wall, often event, for winter use in harsh conditions.

[Roger Caffin]

reading about a double-wall tent and finding out it only has a netting inner.
Marketing spin. Trust me, this is a real gold coin …
And if the fly is a throw-over design – forget it. You can’t even pitch it in bad weather.

many “expedition grade” single wall tents (Rab, Black Diamond, etc), single wall, often event, for winter use in harsh conditions. 
Yeah … and none of them are of any general use. If they have a waterproof fly, then the condensation is horrible. If they have a genuinely breathable fly, then they will leak like a sieve in rain.

Personally, I suspect the designers can have never slept in either design in the mountains in poor weather. But their egos are on the line, and marketing thinks they are good for the company image.

Cheers

[Christoph Blank]

I once looked at the Rab Ridge Raider, as a hooped bivy for quick overnight stays. But now as you mention it, it must be quite a problem regarding condensation..

After all it seems like the Akto is really the winter tent to go, if you want protection from weather and cold. I’ll see if I find a good used one – still waiting for the Kovea Fireball, stove covers and CO meter :/

[Christoph Blank]

I received the CO meter now (UEI CO71A) and I’m upset – although sold as new, it looks and smells like used.

As the sensors have a limited lifetime I’m now not sure if I should keep it or send it back. It seems to measure though, not sure how accurately.
I’ve already contacted the vendor for the year it was produced, based on the shipping date. :(

[Roger Caffin]

eBay? Happens. You could file a complaint, and maybe should.

I bought a pack of 5 small ‘NEW’ centre drills from an eBay vendor once. They were not only second hand, but the tips were all broken. I did not get a satisfactory resolution of the matter, but I will never do business with any of his outlets again. Mind you, I am not sure he even knew what a centre drill was or how it is used.

Cheers
Roger

[Christoph Blank]

Ebay yes – it’s hard to get elsewhere in Europe, unfortunately. I’ve already filed an ebay complaint and also the paypal customer protection. Let’s see, if it isn’t too old I’ll maybe keep it.

And yeah, unfortunately I know these Ebay stories, it can be quite hard sometimes, especially resolving these issues.

Is there I way, like a quick test/setup that produces more or less stable results, I could use to test the sensor/response of the device?

[Roger Caffin]

A calibrated CO environment? Not easy!

In open air in the country (like not in the middle of a high traffic area!), you should get no more than 1 -2 ppm. In essence that is the ‘zero’.  Do not aim for 0 ppm as that might be misleading.

You could hold the meter some distance above an MSR Reactor stove at low power if you want to see a definite response. The stove could give well over 1,000 ppm CO, which can be lethal. 1,500 ppm is possible. The original version which I tested was closer to 2,000 ppm (if I remember correctly), but MSR re-engineered the stove after I sent them our pre-publication report. I still fault them for proceeding to sell the stove though: very hazardous.

Cheers

[Richard Nisley]

Christoph,

Find a draft free area to do this basic calibration test:

The CO from burning a small-wooden-camping-match will provide a negligible increase in CO from a normal background level of ~0-1 ppm CO. After burning 1/2 the match, then blowing it out, the CO level will climb to a peak of ~15 +-5 ppm CO with the extinguished match is held under the sensor grid opening. The +-5 ppm CO is largely attributable to micro drafts. The CO reading will then slowly go back to a normal background level within about a minute.

 

[Christoph Blank]

I don’t have a MSR reactor, but will try with other stoves (alcohol etc) in the evening.
I did the quick test with a match and it responded as Richard explained, so it seems to work at least.

Thank you!

[Christoph Blank]

@Roger, out of curiosity – at which distance do you measure, above the stove? I tried to measure the output of my BRS-3000T and it barely showed anything.
Tried to make a chimney with my hand and it went up slightly (below 10 though) as it’s quite hard given the heat directly above the stove..

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Christopher

My ‘standard’ measurements are made in a special stove testing chamber. See our series on Carbon Monoxide at https://backpackinglight.com/stoves_tents_carbon_monoxide/  for a picture. That chamber included a cooling system for the exhaust flow, as the CO sensor is temperature sensitive and I wanted to avoid that problem.
If you want to test more simply, hold the meter about 12 – 15 inches above the stove, but watch out for over-heating. It will tell you whether you are getting 10, 100 or 1000 ppm very quickly.

My measurements of the BRS-3000T also showed very low levels – 10 ppm or lower. A curious design, that one.

Cheers

 

[Christoph Blank]

Ah right, I like the setup you used in the articles, very sophisticated. My current method is a bit simpler at the moment :)

But I’m glad that you had the same results, I thought it might be too low, reading about the outputs in your tests.

[Christoph Blank]

I received the BRS-22H today. The built quality is as low as the price, but that was expected.
What surprised me is that there is no rubber gasket between the regulator and the to part which is screwed onto it.
Visible here: http://img.dxcdn.com/productimages/sku_286639_2.jpg

I also thought it’s glowing only, but there is quite a flame if I increase the rate.

If I use the CO Meter over the device, it’s max is around 10ppm

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Christoph

‘No rubber gasket’ – this worries me a little. Do you mean no rubber gasket on the outside of the connector or no rubber O-ring on the inside? There must be an O-ring, but there is actually no need for an external gasket.

10 ppm from an IR heater like that is actually quite good. The unfortunate MSR Reactor stove was more like 1,500 ppm.

Cheers

[Christoph Blank]

O-ring is the better word, yes :) It seems to be by design, there are actually some holes in the shaft, under this bell like thing.

I’ll take a picture later, it’s some kind of air inlet.

If you measure a stove like this, you get a rate of ppm output. What I’m asking myself now is how to interpret this rate. E.g given a tent with size x, what vents size do I need. When does this rate get critical, what’s too much, etc..

[Richard Nisley]

Christoph,

Erect a test shelter option in storm-set mode.

Place a cardboard sheet on a base or long stake. The sheet should be about the size/shape of your seated body. Draw .5 meter circles on the cardboard to establish consistent IR measurement zones. Set your CO meter to capture the MAX CO. Affix the CO meter sensor on the cardboard where your nose would be normally positioned and clear the old max reading.

Place the heater in your closed test shelter and let it run for 15 minutes while you wait outside.

Make a small opening in the entrance and then measure the average IR for each circle and record them along with the maximum CO.  You can use anything from a thermal camera to a cheap IR temperature gauge.

The combination of the IR delta pattern and the maximum CO reading will show you the efficacy of each heater/shelter option.

[Christoph Blank]

Thanks Richard, I will try that!

I now have both, the Kovea Fireball and the BRS-H22, for those interested:

The build quality of the Kovea Fireball is much better, it costs a bit more though of course. Weight of my Fireball is 558g while the BRS weights 489g and can be slimmed down to ~370g removing the front cover.

The biggest difference is that the Kovea can be inverted, the BRS cannot.
The Kovea can be pointed upright as well to use as a pot heater.

The Kovea can be tilted, however the angle it points up is ~45 degrees, which is quite steep. If I’m sitting on the same level as the heater, I have to put it in between my feet to warm my whole body.
This is where the BRS is a bit better, the angle is only ~5 degrees, and given that it is higher as well, it’s easier to point it at your body.

The BRS burners have a second cover (metal net) around the inner netting, I think this has a similar purpose as the infrared stove covers.

[DAN-Y]

Heating duration is an interesting question. I would say 3-4 hours per day as I’m hiking all day, cooking in the evening, reading a bit, sleeping.

 

How many canisters for one weeks worth of heating?

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