Tent Heater options – candle/alcohol/propane, what to use?

[David Thomas]

“pocket sized CO warners?
Not really pocket-sized, afaik.”

The TOCSIN 3 Cockpit Monitor is definitely pocket-sized.  4.23 ounces (120 grams).  $169 at Sporty’s Pilot Shop

There are some $99 options from industrial safety supply companies (meant to worn throughout one’s work day).  Cell-phone to GPS-ish in size.

Some of the home, wall-mount units (9-volt battery powered) by Nighthawk have an LED readout that displays highest CO value when you press a button.  I’d guess they’re about 10 ounces.  The upside is that they can be had for about $40 at a building supply store.

And then there are these.  Long used by pilots, $4.95 each, less in quantity.  90 days once open, storage life 3 years.  Weighs, I don’t know, about 10 grams (like about two credit cards).

[Christoph Blank]

@David, thanks a lot for your input! I’m aware of the indicator cards as I’m a pilot myself, but didn’t know about the small electronic devices, or at least not of those being rather cheap.

Given that I also heated the car with gas at times ~150$ are worth it and I think this is quite a good investment, even with careful handling and venting it might still be interesting to actually monitor the values.
As always I have to find a way to get these in Europe..

Regarding the other post, that’s right, I want to first find out how much of power I need, with a better tent setup. And then find a suitable and “low emission” heater.

That’s where I hope @richard nisley to help a bit in finding an optimal shelter setup so that the heater selection is at the end of the chain :)

[Richard Nisley]

Christopher,

The Kovea Fireball is available via either Amazon or eBay.

I measured the worst case CO output at 18 PPM using a UEi Test Instruments CO71A Carbon Monoxide Detector (laboratory grade). I always test the actual CO output of any stove or heater in the shelter(s) I plan to be used with it; I recommend you do the same.

I did not test the worst case CO output for the MSR WindBoiler. Roger tested a very dangerous level of CO for the MSR Reactor but, not the MSR Windboiler. The Reactor uses Venturi tubes as a means of obtaining the proper fuel-air mix. The lower the stove is turned down the MORE carbon monoxide is produced because the flow through Venturi tubes just stalls out if there isn’t enough heat to drive everything. The MSR Windboiler is a ported burner and should THEORETICALLY not suffer from the same inverted CO curve that plagues the Reactor. Please test the actual CO output of any stove/heater and shelter combination in advance of using it in the field.

I measured a Kovea Fireball 6.81 hour run time at high using the large MSR Isobutane/Propane canister (23.3 oz. gross weight). The measured heat output was 3141 BTU. This was adequate for a 70F clothing surface temperature at 0F ambient.

[David Thomas]

There was a unit being recommended to pilots (but maybe sold for home use), that was an old-style home detector with continuous readout and alarm by AIM about 15 years ago.  It helpfully DIDN’T have the delay function in the current home ones (which need X minutes above Y ppm to alarm) – fire departments got tired of going on calls when a puff of exhaust, cigarette smoke, etc, tripped a unit.

Anyway, I had it in my car because I’d been using it to assess a business’s air quality (an employee thought her headaches could be due to a window onto the parking lot).  I got in my cold car, started it up, and backed up.  The alarm tripped because I’d just momentarily backed up through my own exhaust and that was enough to get to an alarm level.  That impressed me.

I can find it in a Google search (it is triangular in shape and has the LCD readout in the upper right corner), but all the hits seem to be old.

[Christoph Blank]

Thank you!

@richard nisley, I think I will look for a monitor like the TOCSIN 3 so I can carry it with me.
Is there a particular procedure how to measure the output of stoves? I assume it’s not easy to do this right?

Could you maybe comment on the shelter optimization question? It makes more sense to get this to 100% so I need minimal additional heater warmth..

[Richard Nisley]

Christoph,

It is very simple to measure the CO level from a stove or heater inside a shelter. CO is slightly lighter (-3%) than an air gas mixture. It is very predictable where the air, and therefore CO, will move at any given time based on your shelter venting. In your case, it will go up and out the vent; so, place the meter directly above the stove or heater.

I always measure the CO levels for any stove / heater and shelter combination that I plan to use on a trip. I rarely carry my meter on the trip in order to minimize my pack weight.

Your shelter is fine for use with a radiant heater such as the Kovea Fireball since you will only need about 3,000 BTU to accomplish your worst case personal heating requirement. The parabolic dish distance placement and angle adjustment allows you to focus the vast majority of the long wave thermal radiation on your body’s core. The BRS H22 provides 1050 W = 3582 BTU versus 3141 BTU for the Kovea Fireball but you can’t invert the BRS H22 canister for use near the bottom of your temperature range.

If you used a much-heavier conventional double wall winter shelter (solid breathable inner), then any of the heaters on your original list would work efficiently. Even the low powered single candle lantern would probably be adequate for a significant portion of your temperature range.

 

[Christoph Blank]

@richard nisley, Thanks a lot! I thought you were measuring it outside the shelter, in specific conditions. But that makes sense.
I will try to find one of these CO testers that ship to Europe. Unfortunately it looks like it might be rather expensive, probably well worth it though.

Regarding the BRS H22 I had the same thought, it’s not as flexible, but I think I will give it a try as it is much easier to get. I will also compare the stove covers.

From your own experience, can you recommend any particular double wall shelters (single person) or tell me at what details to look specifically? I’m asking because as Roger pointed out there seem to be some pitfalls with different brands.

[Richard Nisley]

Any double wall shelter with a solid inner will dramatically reduce your heating requirements and allow either convection or radiant heating. Hilleberg has broad distribution in Europe and many models to choose from. They are just one of many good manufacturers with offerings in this market segment.

Your CO emissions need to be much less for safety with double wall – inner wall intersice venting than your current heavily vented perimeter source and peak expulsion vent configuration.

[Roger Caffin]

Christoph

Some very good rules of thumb for the selection of a tent:

Double-skin may be heavier than single-skin, but it is much warmer and more proof against bad weather. A double-skin tent can be quite comfortable.

The more poles the greater the stability.

If the inner tent hangs from the poles and the fly is thrown over the top, it is a ‘pop-up’. These are cheap and nasty, they collapse in bad weather, they are hard to pitch in bad weather, and they are generally unreliable. But they are cheap. You get what you pay for.

If the poles are really threaded into the fly, it is a much better tent: better designed and far more stable in bad weather. If it is a genuine tunnel tent, you can’t get much better (but I am biased). Domes with threaded poles (NOT pop-ups) are also stable and roomy, but they are generally heavy.

If the tent does not have a sewn-in groundsheet, it is not a real tent in my books. It may be quite OK as a shelter in fine weather down low in sheltered places. I have seen the weather in the Austrian Alps, and it can be bad.

I have probably offended a large number of BPL members  with these comments, not to mention lots of (mainly American) ‘tent’ makers. Well, tough.

Cheers

 

[Catherine Harley]

Bergans are doing some “Hilleberg look-a-likes” – a bit less expensive and will fit Rogers description above :-)

[Rob P]

You can also check Exped and Terra Nova.  A little cheaper than the Hillebergs.  (By the way, I’d love to hear Roger’s opinions on the Terra Nova Polar series tunnel tents at some point)  :)

 

 

[Bob Moulder]

Realizing that this is not a pro/con discussion about tent heaters I hesitate to weigh in…

However, (and you knew that was coming, lol) temperatures of -3°C to +10°C are incredibly mild and can be addressed easily with an appropriate clothing system and, if necessary, supplemented with the sleep system.

 

[DAN-Y]

Get 2 Jon-e Giant Size Hand Warmers. Place them in strategic areas. They get hot.

Jon-e Giant Size Hand Warmer

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Jon-e-Giant-Size-Hand-Warmer-Orbex-with-Red-Drawstring-Bag-/112129460916?hash=item1a1b6fcab4%3Ag%3AheoAAOSwHoFXq0-0&_trkparms=pageci%3D821c35f0-7cd5-4584-a966-3783831d274f%2Cparentrq%3D171d59c71570a88a31f6e7d2fffd500a%2Ciid%3D1%2Cobjectid%3D159039

[Roger Caffin]

Terra Nova Polar series tents
Basically, just from the photo on their web site, it looks reasonable. At 3 kg it is rather heavy (my 2-man winter 4-pole tunnel weighs 1.8 kg), but Terra Nova do have to cater to DoE and Boy Scouts. I have NOT actually handled or seen the tent in person, so that is mainly guessing of course.
Brownie points: steep rear end so you don’t get the end of the tent on the foot of your SB/quilt. Length, height and width look OK. Vestibule is not large, but it will do for cooking.

temperatures of -3°C to +10°C are incredibly mild
They are for us. For novices unused to it, ‘cool’. Must allow for that.

Cheers

 

One Exped tent was reviewed in the Tunnel series referenced above.

 

 

[James holden]

a few lazy thoughts …

• the uk climbing folks have had issues with terra novas customer service and warranty lately …

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=644015

• while a solid inner tent can increase the inside temps by a good 10F+ above the ambient outside (BPL measured 17F on a TN comp), getting a bigger tent (2p for 1 person) will negate some of this gain as theres more air to heat up … as will getting certain tent outers that cant slam right to the ground in nasty conditions
• the weight difference between a solid vs mesh inner is ~65g as listed for the trekkertent stealth1 …  thats roughly the same difference between a 30F and 20F EE down quilt … the difference is that the solid inner will also block the wind pretty well, increase the temps in the tent not just the bad, block windblown rain, etc … the downside is more potential condensation issues when sealed up
• the temps listed by the OP are generally not challenging if its fairly dry, and not too windy … however add in brit or PNW style winter freezing rains and it can be quite a bit of type 3 fun indeed

;)

[Justin Baker]

Roger, what is your issue with tents that don’t have a sewn in groundsheet? In my limited experience, I prefer floorless tents because water can drain into the ground and I can shake out the groundsheet.

[Roger Caffin]

I have had both. When the groundsheet is ‘sewn in’ and forms a bucket, you are safe. I remember one time we were literally floating as an acute thunderstorn had put an inch or two of water across the camp site. Honest! But I had seam-sealed all the sewing. The hassle was finding something stable to sit the stove on for dinner: everything was floating and wobbling.

I have seen people accidentally lean on the edge of a separate groundsheet so the water flowed across the top of the groundsheet. Not for me, thank you.

Cheers

 

[Christoph Blank]

Thanks again for the posts.

@richard nisley, I think I will optimize my tent setup first so I can start at the lower end of these heaters, it just makes more sense to me in terms of efficiency.
Regarding the PPM Monitors – what exactly is “lab grade” here? I see that most of the 50-200$ devices have an accuracy of 20% or 15% from 0 – 100ppm, is this accurate enough?
I think I will still look for one that fits in the pocket so if needed I can carry it with me..

@roger, regarding tunnel and double person tents: While in the area I’m going to for this trip, and also many other regions here, does not strictly disallow tent camping, it’s not really wanted (generally overnighters are okay in Austria, Switzerland, Italy but longer camping is prohibited).

For this reason I’m looking for a rather compact tent (single person) that is rather easy to set up (not too many poles, although knowing that this will sacrifice stability).
For the upcoming trip I will pitch it in the evening, and pack it again in the morning.

Sidenote: I’m aware that -3 to 10 are rather mild, but I want to find out where I am, what helps and what doesn’t and how I can optimize my setup with the additional possibility of a heat source. I’m also used to sleeping in cold conditions, as said it is mainly out of interest to see what I can improve for these, different, kind of trips where I have to spend more time in the shelter than I usual do.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Cristoph

Camping – we were a bit worried too at the start, until someone quietly explained to us that ‘camping’ was really referring to caravans and car campers. What we do is not called ‘caming’, it’s called ‘bivouac’.We have bivouaced across Europe, with never any problems. OK, down low we use camping grounds for sure (they have shops and showers and toilets!), but up high we just camped – sometimes discretely, sometimes openly.

I think leaving your tent pitched during the day is not advised. OK.

but I want to find out where I am,
Very very smart. Go for it.

Cheers

 

[Christoph Blank]

Hi Roger, indeed, that’s what I mean with overnight stays, the right term would be bivouac as you pointed out. To be fair, it’s hardly controlled/executed, but I want to avoid problems.
What I meant is, the probability to run into problems with a 2-person, tunnel tent in red colour, especially in switzerland, is higher in the area as if I would just use something like the Hilleberg Akto, solo, in green that is easy to pitch and pack. I’m combining this trip with aviation photography (Axalp) and as they are already quite sensitive, I want to avoid any confrontation.

After some research the Akto seems the leading tent here, I also read that it’s possible to slim it down to 1.3Kg by using different poles, stakes, etc.
I’m still looking for alternatives, as Hillebergs are really expensive, but it’s hard to find it seems.

[Rick M]

Tarptent Stratospire with semi solid inner is ideal for your application. More spacious living area than the Atko coffin.

[Roger Caffin]

the probability to run into problems with a 2-person, tunnel tent in red colour,
We never had any problems on the GR10 with our bright tent – when we were up high. This is at Cabanes Lourdes on the GR10. No-one said a thing.

We did get challenged once. We were camped on a high saddle, had eaten dinner, and were going to sleep, when someone outside said ‘Allo’. It was the Guardian (Patron) from the Refuge way down below us. He thought we were camped too close to his Refuge – nothing else. Didn’t we see the ‘No Camping’ signs near the Refuge? Nope, we hadn’t come that way. When he understood we had come from several hundred km away, and were around week 6 of a long through-walk, he said ‘Oh. You will be gone tomorrow by 9 am?’ Ha, by 9 am we would be many km away. ‘Well, OK, Bon Nuit’. No hassles once he realised we were not just trying to avoid the Refuge and make trouble. He was not at all concerned that we were actually bivouacing.

Cheers

 

[Christoph Blank]

Hi again Roger,

Yes I would also not mind it in this situation. But as explained I’m not moving, I have to sleep there (or vicinity) for 4-5 nights and I don’t want the military personnel to get upset and risk having stricter and stricter limits every year, that’s the main reason I want to stay rather compact.

I had a look at the Tarptent Moment/Stratospire/Scarp and it seems they all would be alternatives (with solid inner) to the Akto. However, what seems unnecessary to me is the additional space on both sides, I don’t really need that.
As I also need a new tent for iceland next year, I had a look at what people use there so I can double-use it. But it seems as if the Akto would already be overkill for this, Andrew Skurka writes “the ideal shelter for iceland is a single wall solo tent”.

Difficult decisions..

[Roger Caffin]

“the ideal shelter for iceland is a single wall solo tent”.
Well, yes, but what does he mean? This is a ‘single wall solo tent’:

Honest – it really is a single wall solo tent. I made it for Ryan Jordan (his photo). It’s a good tent, and will take some bad weather. Why red? Because you WANT visibility in the mountains.

Cheers

 

[Rick M]

And the Stratospire outer can also used alone as a shaped “duomid” tarp giving a huge amount of space. As can the inner during fine weather.  It is VERY versatile! But if you think it my be too much tent, the Notch would still be a better choice than the Atko. Much better ventilation. The Atko is notorious for condensation.

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