Sleep solution chat for the high Sierra

[JG H]

Hello, all.

I secured a Yosemite backcountry permit for the end of Sept, for myself and a few friends, and I’m pondering how to balance weight and warmth with my sleep system for the conditions I may encounter. I checked the average temps at Tuolumne Meadows (8.6k feet) for Sept and Oct and did some very basic, back-of-the-envelope math on what the hi/low temps might be. Our first two nights will be spent at or above 9k feet, so I’ve guesstimated the lows to be around 20˚ given the average temps and the elevation difference.

So, here is some more information that should be helpful to anyone kind enough to weigh in here…

–> My bag is a Katabatic Palisade quilt w/4oz overstuff (effectively a 23˚ quilt).

–> I carry a 1/8″ x 18″ x 40″ EVA foam pad (think GG thin-lite) to keep my sleep pad from sliding around in my tent. Guesstimated R-value looks to be around 0.875.

–> Here are my sleep pad options: Exped Ultra 7R @ 22oz with an R-Value of 7.1; Exped Ultra 5R @ 20oz with an R-value of 5.4; Big Agnes Rapide SL @ 18oz with an R-value of 4.8; Nemo Tensor All-Season @ 16oz with an R-value of 5.4.

–> My tent is a Zpacks Duplex.

–> Additionally, I am a 55 year old male and I tend to sleep a little cooler than I once did. I wouldn’t say I’m an outright cold sleeper, but I do lean toward the cooler side these days. To help quantify that, I keep my house at 70˚ at night and with the ceiling fan going in my bedroom I sleep under a sheet, thin blanket, and a bed quilt. Also, I live in coastal AL at about 40′ elevation.

All that said, what I’m wondering is which sleep pad this community thinks would be most optimal if I want to ensure a cozy night’s sleep with a preference for sleeping in a beanie, t-shirt, and briefs. I don’t like to sleep in base- or mid-layers b/c I don’t like clothes twisting up on me (I’m a side sleeper and I flip between my right and left sides all night). I’m currently leaning toward the Tensor All Season pad b/c of the weight and the middle-of-the-road R-value, but I’m looking for some feedback here b/c I have never camped overnight at that elevation and b/c it’s been a long time since I have spent a night at 20˚. I want to be as sure as I can that the pad I choose partners well with my quilt, allowing me to sleep toasty warm for the conditions we’ll experience.

Thanks, y’all!

[Bob Shuff]

I’ve heard the Rapid is not as warm as rated. I have the tensor all-season and think that will be fine with the thin foam pad beneath.   Days will be likely above freezing so my logic says the ground won’t be a problem with that combo

I sleep with more clothes as I get older and I’m also a side sleeper that tosses and turns. I get the concern if using a tight mummy, but not a quilt. Assuming you will have base and insulation layers you can use them if cold at night.  I would consider an extra mid layer of Alpha or some other fleece in addition to a synthetic puffy. These could be useful if hiking in unexpected colder wet weather.

I’m guessing it will be relatively dry that time of year – not days on end of constant cold rain.  I have considered Ryan’s suggestion of a synthetic over-quilt for sustained wet and cold, but it won’t be light and is not as useful except in the tent.

[JG H]

Thanks, Bob. I agree that of the pads I have, the BA Rapide SL is not the warmest. I might even go so far as to say that their R-value estimation is a little optimistic.

I do have a Senchi Alpha 120 hoodie, a pair of Senchi Alpha 60 bottoms, and I also have an Eddie Bauer Super Sevens Primaloft hoodie (competitor to the Alpha 60). I’m not sure which hoodie I’ll have with me during the trip, but the Senchi bottoms will be in my pack for sure. I will also have an EE Torrid jacket and a Ketl Mtn. NoFry hoodie with me. The NoFry will be worn over my t-shirt everyday for the added warmth and the 30+ SPF since I’m a ginger.

What I’m hoping to avoid by picking the right pad is the need to don any clothing other than a t-shirt and briefs during the night because it annoys me when they get twisted from turning from side to side. That’s why I’m hoping to get a little more info from backpackers here who are accustomed to those temps and altitude and who might know more than I do about how the R-value of a pad compliments the temperature rating of a quilt. I greatly appreciate your input, my man.

[jscott]

congrats on the Yosemite score. Tuolumne as a trailhead is/was  my main launch pad. You’ve “never camped at night at that elevation”. Of course pads are best for protecting from cold from the ground. Still, it will be cold at night, even or especially under good weather conditions: no cloud cover to warm things up. Folks usually climb up from Tuolumne,  although that doesn’t always mean more cold for night temps. Lyell canyon is always cold and condensation is a big issue. Cold air sinks into canyon overnight. plus, Its close to the river after all. I’d splurge and bring an additional one or three ounce pad with a higher rating. Leave half a Powerbar behind and it’s a wash. For me, sleep is highly important. well worth an additional three ounces. P.s. good choice bringing the GG  style underpad!!

[Dan]

Personally, I don’t think the pad is the main issue, that quilt would not be enough for me to sleep comfortably at 20F, especially in my underwear. A 23-degree rating means comfort at 30F, not 20F. Beefing up the pad is not going to compensate for an inadequate quilt, IMO. If it actually reaches 20F, you will probably be trying to sleep in every piece of clothing you have.

For me, an R value of 5.4 would be plenty under those conditions, but I would definitely have a 10 degree quilt.

[JG H]

JScott, thanks for the response. My compatriots are insistent on camping near lakes along our journey, so I expect that it will definitely be chilly with that cold air settling in those bowls. Sounds like you’d vote for the Exped 7R, and the whole reason for buying one was this trip, those bowls, and the elevation + temps. Thanks, buddy!

[JG H]

Dan, thanks for sharing. My experience with Katabatic quilts is that they’re conservatively rated and, even with me being a “cool” sleeper, I find that their temp ratings are pretty true for me. I slept like a champ under my Palisade 30 on my Ultra 5R on a night with a low of 28 degrees, though I did wear thin base layers that night.

That said, I only now realize, as I read these responses and think more about my options, that my optimism for sleeping in a t-shirt and briefs under a 23 degree quilt in 20 degrees temps is foolishly optimistic, even with a 7.1 R-value pad. Given that I’ll have alpha layers with me, I think the coupling of the quilt and 7R pad while wearing my layers would probably get me where I need to be. I’ll have my Torrid jacket with me, just in case, and I have a pair of EE Torrid booties that I’m now considering throwing in the pack, too, just for insurance.

Many thanks for your $0.02.

[jscott]

I’m a bag sleeper, and indeed my 20% bag has been stressed to the max in Yosemite, early and late season.  But JG H, you have great back up garments. That said, I forgot to ask what tent or tarp you’re using. The coldest I’ve ever been, and my friends in another  tent agree, was one early season trip when winds were howling  all night. We all had double wall tents, but it really took finding a low spot out of the winds–and I mean, just a few feet lower in a more protected area–and then piling up branches around our tents to prevent winds from penetrating beneath the bottom lining of 0ur awnings to really help. Normally I want some air circulating from underneath. Not those nights!  plenty of wind came in despite my best efforts.

sorry to digress but this may be a circumstance that you encounter. If you’re sleeping under a tarp,  a whole ‘nother set of protocols will apply. Double wall tents definitely help to keep warmth in better than single walls and tarps.  In September, warmth at night will be a priority.

[JG H]

JScott, I’ll be carrying a Zpacks Duplex. If the winds are howling at Boothe and Babcock lakes then I may be, too. I am in coastal AL now, but I lived in the SC upstate for 14 years and my proximity to the Smokies is how I came to appreciate that tent. Easy set up, taller gap off the ground, and toggled fly doors means a breezier interior and reduced condensation in that rain forest environment. I love the versatility of the Duplex set-up using trekking poles or the free-standing carbon pole kit. I hate the rainbow door (loathe that stupid design), but until someone makes another one with a D or inverted T door then I’m married to it. I have two Duplexes, a DuplexL, and an Offset Trio, so my options aren’t really optimal for limiting airflow.

[jscott]

You’ll be fine and love the adventure! wonderful, literally world class country. Odds  are that you’ll have perfect weather. Regardless, it will be cold at night. bring that down jacket!

I loved my Zpacks hexamid solo. But it was colder than the double wall tents I was used to. You’ll know if cold winds are blowing. Finding a slightly more  sheltered spot,  and then surrounding your tent with logs or heavy branches that are usually found in abundance, can make a big difference.

Yes some will  say this last goes against “leave no trace” philosophy.  I follow those  guidelines as much as possible. Every winter, logs and branches are moved about by ten feet of snow in the Sierra. The vast  wilderness will survive my moving a log or branch three feet to help protect me on a cold windy night.

[JG H]

JScott, I read Andrew Skurka’s article about picking the perfect campsite, so I’ll be scouting around each night when we reach our day’s destination. I actually already have a site in mind for Boothe lake. I’ll definitely be looking for as ideal a compromise as I can find between picturesque and protected.

[Devin Z]

I’m incredibly jealous of your future adventure! I hope everything goes smoothly and no insane weather events.

 

In my opinion, you’re better served beefing up the sleep system and having the peace of mind that you won’t be shivering through the night. I always ask myself “what’s worse- carrying 8 to 16 oz more and getting lucky that I didn’t need it, or shivering through the night because I tried to cut sleep system weight?” I have never regretted the weight that allowed a good night sleep, but I’ve spent many cold nights kicking myself for trying to outsmart (outweight?) nighttime temperature realities.

 

I know this gets into “that’s the mindset that adds 5 lbs to your pack!” territory, but to me there’s a difference between packing your fears and packing your reality- I’ve talked myself into believing I’ll be fine with the slightly lighter bag/quilt enough times that I don’t listen to that voice anymore when I’m deciding between pads/bag/quilt.

[JG H]

Devin, thanks for sharing. I like the idea of packing for reality which, for me, is that it’s better to be a bit warm than a bit cold. Since I have no influence over Mother Nature, and that the temps could very likely be a whisker beyond my quilt, the Ultra 7R is the right choice. Plus, all that down inside makes it a quiet sleep which should only help.

[jscott]

maybe add a down vest and you’re golden.

So you’ll be at Vogelsang at boothe? You’ll love it. Two things: if you have the energy, or a day, hike to Vogelsang pass, or even the peak. Great views from the  pass.

–and/or: the high sierra camp will be closed, perhaps. Vogelsang lake, near but still out of sight of the high sierra camp, has better views, imo,  than Boothe. Boothe is sort of down in a canyon. Vogelsang shouldn’t have many folks about at all. Plus it’s easy to go wandering off trail up the the brief cascade  that feeds the lake. from there it’s flat easy country into a few hidden lakes that few ever visit. I would often go  there after hiking in from Tuolumne. Easy day hiking.

Alternatively, if you have a full day for dayhiking, you can easily stay high from Vogelsang pass and route through some truly spectacular high areas with great grand vistas to the Clarke range. Good stuff! the high country there is wide open and easy to negotiate. No cliffs! all class one strolling. Nothing technical in the least. Take the extra day if you can! the hike out from Boothe is easy, all gently downhills with some flats. 3 or 4 hours.

[JG H]

jscott, I’ll send you a PM. thanks for the info!

[Author]

Posts