Self-Arrest Tools for Steep Icy/Snowy Slopes

[Roger Caffin]

I have to strongly disagree with Pedestrian.

Planning is NEVER a wasted effort. Extreme weather can happen even in the middle of summer in the mountains. Do you blindly go forth secure in the belief that nothing bad will ever happen – or do you stop and think about what you could do if the unexpected happens?

But in this day of real-time satellite imagery
HA!
Not available in most of the world. Satellite images 3 – 6 months old, maybe.
Relying on yesterday’s sat image to tell you whether you can cross a Pass (for instance) seems to me to be the opposite of wilderness experience and competence.
And what do you do when a solar flare takes out the phone towers and GPS satellites – even for just the day. Sit down and howl?

Cheers

[Pedestrian]

@rcaffin:

If you read that I implied one shouldn’t plan…..then fine argue away! I didn’t imply one mustn’t plan. I did suggest one mustn’t *plan* to improvise with foolhardy tools.

But whatever……

I guess you need to argue about  something…..always….LOL

“Not available in most of the world.”

The part of the world of interest to me (and the specific region which prompted this thread) does have decent imagery…it’s not perfect but it’s good enough.

Sorry you don’t have access to imagery available where you hike…..wherever that is…..

 

 

[Roger Caffin]

If it is a dumb idea but it works, then it is not a dumb idea.

Cheers

[jscott]

“But in this day of real-time satellite imagery and planning/mapping tools that should be a rare/unlikely occurrence.”

Relying on imagery and mapping tools without on the ground experience is foolhardy. In the end, we always encounter situations on the ground (or snow) and immediately before us. I wonder how many people revert to their devices when confronted with sketchy ice fields etc. and make choices based on the information they see there, rather than what their own senses are telling them?

people spend tons of time developing skills to run their devices. That’s not the same thing as developing skills to meet situations outdoors in the mountains.

Trust your experience and your instincts, not your device, in sketchy situations. Your senses should be the final arbiter, not a ‘planning tool’.

 

[Pedestrian]

“people spend tons of time developing skills to run their devices. That’s not the same thing as developing skills to meet situations outdoors in the mountains.”

The Luddites are out swinging their cudgels ;).

No one can stop you from choosing to live like it’s 200 B.C.; you’re in great company!

Denialism is the fashion du jour I understand….

One *can* use planning tools and satellite imagery *AND* develop one’s skills in the outdoors.

 

 

[Roger Caffin]

I have to wonder whether we are talking at cross-purposes here.
I am NOT talking about planning to cobble something together to handle several days of glacier crossing. If you KNOW you are going to encounter snow, take the right gear.

But if something really unexpected happens on a trip where it shouldn’t, does it hurt to have some idea in advance of what you can do? Could a little planning help?

For example, one year we were doing the GR11, an 8-week traverse of the Pyrenees on the Spanish side, in late summer and early autumn. Spain is hot, and by this time all the snow should have melted. Indeed it had, except for one short narrow north-facing gully, which had snow up it. The guide book mentioned it as being a scree gully requiring some care, but we often carry 20 m of 4.5 mm Kernmantel rope (212 g). It is useful in many situations. (The Spanish route is less-well developed that the French GR10, and still had a few ‘interesting’ patches.)

So, how to get up here? I had thought about this beforehand, and reckoned on using two things we would be carrying anyhow: waterproof overgloves with liners (you get storms up there), and our Ti potty trowel. I added a stout stick to this for Sue, which we picked up on approach to the gully when we could see the snow. I hacked some rough steps and kicked them too, and formed some handholds, up to the top. The gloves allowed us to ‘dagger’ our hands into the snow. Then I used the rope to bring Sue up. Not a problem.

Were there alternative routes? Not in this country! On the other side of the ridge the side was falling away badly: loose gypsum ‘rock’ I think. We traversed past that on tree roots, literally.

Now, was this sort of planning folly? Should I have carried an ice axe for 8 weeks against the very slight possibility of needing it?

Cheers

[David Thomas]

>”Extreme weather can happen even in the middle of summer in the mountains.”

I’ve used tire chains on my car every month of year in California (nominally a Mediterranean climate).

[jscott]

Pedestrian, apparently in your world math hasn’t been developed. Apparently there isn’t an app for that!  Or perhaps you should have googled to discover whether computers came in at the time of Christ. I suppose your iphone was on the fritz or the battery was dead, leaving you helpless? In any case, you make my point by failing to practice basic math skills in favor of living on the net, where all will be revealed (or not!).

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