Questions About 10 Denier vs. 30 Denier

[Lowell k]

Location: Yosemite

Season: Mid September

Altitude: 8 – 12k

Duration: 1 week

I am being somewhat specific about the conditions in order to keep these variables constant. Given these constants, what are the pros and cons of a 10 denier tarp vs. a 30 denier tarp, also assuming the tarps are the same shape.

It seems that the purpose of the tarp, to protect me from the elements, is about equal for the 10 denier compared to the 30 denier, but there will be some weight savings for the 10 denier.

Am I missing something?

[Lowell k]

Following up on my post, here are two fairly similar tarps for comparison:

1. Slingfin Splitwing (10 denier, tarp + vestibule + mesh body = 21 oz., $315.00)
2. ProTrail (30 denier, 26 oz., $229.00)

[Henry Shires / Tarptent]

The ProTrail product page has a link to a graphic which explains the difference between 30D and 15D. For 10D fabric the math is that 30D has 3x the linear mass density of 10D and the graphic below would show that the radius of the 10D fabric  is 0.58r (where r is the radius of the 30D fabric).   Also, ProTrail canopy fabric is pressure rated at 5,000 mm. SlingFin doesn’t list the pressure rating but it is undoubtedly much lower.

 

[Lowell k]

Thanks, Henry S.

What do these numbers mean in the field? For example, if it rains for two hours, what difference will I notice between the 10 and 30 denier? What if that rain is accompanied by 15 mph winds?

Lowell

[Henry Shires / Tarptent]

The 10D would be fine for your intended use.  It just isn’t as strong, durable, or waterproof over the longer term.

-H

[Michael B]

All else being equal, what Henry said, and also, 10D product will pack smaller, not just lighter. A 10D Nylon 6.6 will likely outperform, or perform similarly to standard 30D Nylon 6 even in tear and abrasion resistance due to the higher tenacity of the fibers. I am not sure what the products you are researching are made from, but 6.6 is preferable if you can get it.

[Jerry Adams]

Smaller D fabric has smaller gaps between fibers so it may be more waterproof

depends on how tight it’s woven also, and what the coating is,…

[Henry Shires / Tarptent]

>Smaller D fabric has smaller gaps between fibers so it may be more waterproof

Do you have an example of that?

> A 10D Nylon 6.6 will likely outperform, or perform similarly to standard 30D Nylon 6 even in tear and abrasion resistance due to the higher tenacity of the fibers.

Our 30D Nylon is 6.6 and 10D Nylon 6.6 will certainly pack smaller and is lighter but will in no way otherwise outperform 30D for abrasion or tear strength of waterproofness over the long haul.  Less matter is just less matter.

 

[Michael B]

Henry, I m glad to your products are using a high quality nylon product. I only put the information out there for the OP consideration, not as a marl against your product in any way. I wasn’t sure if the OP is looking at made goods, or materials for a MYOG; either way, material specs are good to have on hand.

[Jerry Adams]

“Do you have an example of that?”

I remember some other thread where this was said

Maybe someone will speak up about this

Like I said, it depends on a lot of factors

[Lowell k]

I am looking at a somewhat specific usage example; Fall in the Sierras, the possibility of light rain and/or snow, and a desire to save some weight.

From what I am reading in this thread, it sounds like a 10d nylon 6.6 tarp would work well, but I would need to be more careful with it vs a nylon 6.

I read that nylon 6.6 is more abrasion resistant (30%) than nylon 6, which seems like a good property for a tarp, but I am not sure how relevant this is to the end-user.

Is 6.6 a selling point for a manufacturer? Meaning, can a tarp manufacturer say with accuracy that a nylon 6.6 is going to last longer vs. a nylon 6 over time?

Thanks,

Lowell

[Roger Caffin]

Is 6.6 a selling point for a manufacturer?
No.
Because 99% of the population would not know the difference.
Cheers

[Dave @ Oware]

+1

For a tarp application you won’t notice the difference. More important is the design, how it is set up and coatings. Thicker thread (30d) has less surface area exposed to sun so should last longer in UV exposure.

General characteristics of nylons-

Type 6 is very slightly lighter (lower density), has higher impact strength, and can be recycled over and over.

Type 6.6 has  a higher tensile strength and melting point.

[Lowell k]

All – thanks for the education on this.

Lowell

[Sam Farrington]

Henry S,

In your Feb 15th post at 9:55 AM you mention that your (woven) fabric is nylon.  Given some of the issues with nylon and water absorption, could you share your views about the benefits of silpoly (silicone coated polyester) fabrics as an alternative, and what you may have in mind to address silnylon’s issues with water.  Thanks.

[Henry Shires / Tarptent]

Sam,  ALL fabrics have pluses and minuses. Yes, silpoly has upsides as you say with respect to low water absorption but also downsides of lower pressure ratings, worse abrasion and puncture resistance, worse tear strength, greater susceptibility to rot/mold (when PU is involved), and definitely stretch through the bias which makes for less than idea wind performance. We are certainly not against silpoly in the long run but are still looking for a flavor we like.

[Jerry Adams]

since no one said anything :)

since the warp thread goes up and down every other weft thread there’s a gap between warp threads and also between weft threads

with higher denier fabrics the gap is bigger

when you put a coating on the threads, it has to bridge that gap

bigger gap – harder to get the coating to completely bridge the gap without having holes for water to pass through.  Especially at those squares that are between both warp and weft threads.

it doesn’t mean that it can’t be done, but all else being equal, it’s easier to make lower denier fabric waterproof

I forget where I read this.  I didn’t see anything in quick google search.

[Roger Caffin]

but all else being equal, it’s easier to make lower denier fabric waterproof
But all else is never really equal. Some fabrics have a looser weave than others, and this is due to the loom the fabric was made on. To get a tight weave you need a stronger loom, and the loom will probably run a bit slower. A stronger loom is of course more expensive.

A looser weave is also going to stretch more on the bias, and this can be significant. Since polyester is cheaper than nylon, it tends to be woven on cheaper looms, with a looser weave.

Cheers

[Dave @ Oware]

Jerry-

That becomes apparent when dealing with 1000d Cordura, it’s tough to keep it long term waterproof with a simple coating, you really have to bump up the amount of coating. Laminates are better in this circumstance. Dynema Cuben Fiber is one such and you can see the open grid of fabric inside.

Other factors that effect water penetration are if the fabric swells with moisture to fill those gaps (cotton canvas comes to mind), and surface tension of water on the fabric (Boy Scouts used to make their own tents from cotton twill covered in water repelling alum)

[Roger Caffin]

The best cotton fabric was called ‘Japara’, made with long-staple Egyptian cotton, and it was woven on ONE loom in Bradford, UK. That was the only loom strong enough to get a tight enough weave. When that loom broke, there was no more Japara.

I still have my Boy Scout (‘Paddy Pallin’) Japara 2-man walled A-frame tent – kept just for nostalgia. But we did not use alum for proofing; we all used beeswax in commercial preparations.

Cheers
Roger

[Dave @ Oware]

Yes, some of my old scout handbooks mentioned beeswax too.

A backpacking manual I had when a teen was written by someone who hiked in the CA Sierra near Tahoe a lot (327 sunny days per year). He used candle wax to rub onto the thighs and back of the calf of his denim jeans. This was his rain gear for the bottom half.

He also promoted hickory work shirts. The heavy striped canvas like shirts that looked like you made it from mattress ticking. Most often seen on loggers. History of the Hickory shirt I tried them and really liked them for bugs, manzanita bushwhacks, and sunny snowfield crossings. That and a down jacket and you were ready for the summer temp extremes of the Northern Sierra.  They were heavy! I might get one again someday. But for picnics, yard work and to remember stacking lumber on the planer chain.

[Michael B]

From that article:

But, one would have to admit it is sad that the shirt that built America is now mostly made in China.

Insert X product in place of “shirt” and it is likely still a true statement.

[Sam Farrington]

Jerry,  Hope that Roger’s response was helpful.  I think he was talking about thread count, but he can correct me if I’m wrong.

On a related note, hope you will be pleased to know that I’ve secured arrangements to have the RBTR 15D membrane silpoly tested for HH.  The results should be posted on BPL fairly soon.

[Sam Farrington]

Henry S:   Thank you for your response, and for providing some other upsides and downsides to be considered.  That was very helpful.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Sam

Yes, ‘tight weave’ => ‘thread count’.
Cheers

[Author]

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