Polartec Alpha Direct 4004 and Argon 49 for summer blanket/quilt?

[Monte Masterson]

The Argon 49 wasn’t a big problem really, it was the Alpha Direct that was tricky to deal with. It stretches more in one direction than the other, but regardless it’s a challenge to even lay out for measuring (before cutting). My goal was to cut the Argon to the exact dimensions of the AD 4004 and sew them together around the perimeter about 1/2″ in using a long stitch and lighter tension so as to simply keep the 2 materials together. Then I planed to make double folded bias tape out of 7D silnylon and sew it around the perimeter, however my machine couldn’t handle either task. I ended up heavily pinning the Argon 49 and Alpha Direct together about 1″ in from outer edge and going around with the 0.8 oz DCF strips to use as single fold bias tape (no stretch). The raw Dyneema edges should fray very little over time. I’m sure professionals with the right machine could do far better.

But I’m actually fairly pleased with how the quilt turned out really. The pic I posted is blurry and not very flattering, however everything is solid and functional. I’m putting together a summer XUL kit (> 50* F) with a base weight of around 3.5 pounds I’ll post a thread of the all gear soon and this quilt will be part of it.

[Mark Verber]

Just finish walking Camino (think hut 2 hut).  A piece of 4004 was my only insulation… used for sleeping indoors and for warmth in the early morning when walking and in the evening when sitting around for meals / etc. Was combined with a 3.4 oz poncho, and 3oz sleep sack. Daytime ranged from 35f including windchill to 75f, sleeping from 55-65f.  Worked well.  Short / preliminary write-up https://verber.com/poncho

 

[Bill Budney]

That is amazingly light gear. Love the idea of using an AD blanket as a UL poncho liner.

From your poncho page:

The biggest downside for me is that … moisture often condensates in the chest area.

The solution to that is a full-length front opening. I don’t know why they are not more popular, but you can easily make your own. Adding a front zipper is pretty easy, or snaps, or just loops of cord/grosgrain with cord and locks.

The latter connection allows you to keep the front of the poncho more or less in front, without sealing it shut, thus creating excellent torso ventilation. The poncho then keeps your head, shoulders, and pack dry while allowing air to freely circulate from the front opening to the sides. This works even if you use a belt to keep everything in place during windy conditions. As a bonus, it is lighter even than a zipper.

A super minimal way to add the cord closures is to use sewing clips, which are tiny, UL, and hold very tight. So a cord with clip at each end, and optional loop plus lock/knot for adjusting the length.

 

 

[Mole J]

@Mark Verber

This sounds like you made a useful system for the Camino.  Some photos would be interesting and help understand.  And maybe recommended dimensions of the Alpha piece? Cheers

[Monte Masterson]

Nice innovative approach Mark. Reminds me of a US Army poncho with liner but a heck of a lot lighter. Seems like a waterproof breathable material like Pertex Shield might be a good choice for a poncho material. A little heavier to be sure, however it would be far better than silnylon or silpoly in reducing the clammy sweatiness.

[Mark Verber]

@billb

How does the front opening work?  In the past I had jackets with a front zipper that weren’t fully waterproof.  In a heavy rain my front got totally soaked.

@mole

I will add pictures and more complete description in a few weeks. Thy plan was to return home after the camino, but we have a sick relative so flew strait to TW… and spending most of our time in a hospital so fleshing out the post will have to wait a bit.

@septimius

The idea was inspired by US Army poncho / liner.  As you noted, much lighter and it also dries quicker.  I considered using a wp/b material for the rain poncho but didn’t for two reasons. They first is as you noted… my poncho packs into a  significantly smaller space and is lighter than anything that would be made from wp/b fabric. The other reason is that I am tired of having to periodically replace wp/b raingear, and regularly refresh DWR.  There is a chance that a sil-poly poncho could last the rest of my life without maintenance. While I did have some condensation on the chest, it wasn’t too bad. The bigger issue is that I run hot… when it’s above around 50F in calm winds I overheat in anything but a highly breathable windshirt or shakedry.  In those conditions I just take the poncho off, wear a montbell umbrelo hat which keeps my head dry, let my fast dry clothing get wet, and call it a day.

 

[Bill Budney]

How does the front opening work?

If you add it yourself, any way you want. I would expect that the Moonbow shop you mentioned could add a storm flap or waterproof zipper or whatever you want.

The most rain I’ve seen in a year is moderate rain with no wind, and I’ve been looking for it (for testing). In that case, ventilation is more important than absolute waterproofness. Loops plus cord have been sufficient. I would add snaps if I wanted tighter closure, or send it to Moonbow for a (presumably) professional job.

The idea was inspired by US Army poncho / liner.

That was the image that popped into my head while reading your description. The Army poncho + liner weighs at least 2.5 pounds. Your kit must weigh less than half of that? Maybe a third? It’s a great combination and an excellent idea.

 

[Mark Verber]

Currently weights 8oz, so 5x lighter, though next version of the liner will be larger so likely will be only 4x lighter than the army poncho / liner

 

[Bill Budney]

Nice. :)

How do you finish the edges of the AD where you cut it? Heat/flame?

[Mark Verber]

Didn’t finish the edges.. they haven’t shown wear about around 60 days of.

[Brett Peugh]

Nice.  I think you mentioned a larger version of the Gnu? Do you think it would work for a tall person or is there another suggestion?  How do people get those in the USA?  I am thinking the MLD sleep sack would be too small also.  And am I correct in that for your next 4004 blanket you are going to try and put a head hole in for the poncho?  Thank you.

[Thom]

Mark

how much space would the alpha direct and GNU cape take up ? Would they fit in a bum pack ?

thanks thom

[Mark Verber]

I can almost enclose it it my hand. Maybe a bit smaller diameter of a Red Bull Can an shorter.  Should easily fit in a small bag.

[Mark Verber]

> Do you think it would work for a tall person or is there another suggestion?

I am 5’10” normal size covers down to my butt / my shorts + 23l daypack.  I expect even the tall very might be too small for a trying tall person.  I don’t have a good suggest of an alternative.

> How do people get those in the USA?

Find someone who is traveling to Japan?  I don’t think TrailBum ships internationally, but you could see a list of retailers that carries their products.  My memory is that several have websites and will ship internationally… but you will have to pay un-discounted shipping.

> I am thinking the MLD sleep sack would be too small also.

likely. it was pretty snug.  I will likely go with a larger sleep sack in the future.

> And am I correct in that for your next 4004 blanket you are going to try and put a head hole in for the poncho?

Yes this is likely. My wife are really now figuring out what would be there optimal configuration for us in the future (size, shape, features).

[Monte Masterson]

You could cut the Alpha Direct the same exact size as the poncho and then sew a bias tape around the perimeter of the Alpha Direct (the way I did my quilt but not with the Argon 49 included). Then add Kam snaps on both poncho and Alpha Direct to secure them together when needed. Head slot of Alpha can also be fortified by sewing a bias tape around its circumference. If you don’t the raw edges won’t do well over time.

Needles to say Velcro is the absolute last thing you want to get anywhere near Alpha Direct.

[Brett Peugh]

Thanks Mark.

[Thom]

I did get a  trail bum poncho ,very happy with it . The head hole is tight but works. Takes up very small space in its stuff bag. Fits well in a bum bag. Long enough in back to keep my butt dry, I’m 5’10”.

[Monte Masterson]

I see Jacks R Better now offers an Alpha Direct 4004 quilt liner for $100. Weighs 8 oz and looks to have pretty sizable dimensions. Can also be stand-alone summer blanket or go inside WPB sleeping bag cover. https://www.jacksrbetter.com/product/alpha-direct-active-insulation-quilt-liner-summer-blanket/

[David M]

Thanks Monte for the concept, writeup and photo!

I’d like to see if I can make a more budget friendly version of this for a summer trip and wanted to get the thoughts of this group on materials and the balance of wind-resistance vs. breathability (I’m new to all of this).

Polartec AD 4004 – I’m seeing 2nd’s quality advertised on ETSY at ~$15/yard – so ~$60 for the AD

Outer material – I’m considering 1-oz Hyper-D from RSBTR – at $6.15/yd I’m at ~$25 so all in for the project ~&85-$90.

In the Hyper-D they offer Calendared with low air permeability or uncalendared with higher permeability so I assume better breathability, but more wind coming through.  Recommendations on which is the higher priority?  Am I thinking about this the right way?

Any other budget suggestions?  Thanks!

[Jerry Adams]

I bought a 300gsm fleece blanket for sleeping at home.  $16.  90×60 inches.  amazon.  that would be 8.6 oz/yd2.  Kind of heavy.  There are other ones.  You could cut that to the size you wanted.  Alpha Direct would probably provide a little better performance.

You could make something with it to try out.  I suspect you would find it too cold.  No need for fabric outside or inside.  Just cut the edges – it doesn’t unravel.

Fleece is very heavy for the warmth.  And bulky to pack.  If you made a quilt with 0.7 ozyd2 nylon fabric on both sides, and used 2.5 ozyd2 Apex, it would have twice the warmth for the weight and be less bulky in your pack.

And if you did it in down it would have twice the warmth for the same weight as Apex.

 

[Monte Masterson]

David M, I don’t know whether the calendared or uncalendared would be best for what you have in mind, but either one would probably work fine. Dutchware has the Argon 90 for $7.50/yd and Argon 67 at $10/yd and you only need 3 yards to make an AD quilt/blanket because of course a shell is only needed on one side. You could knock off some shell weight with only a little more cost.

As far as budget suggestions that aren’t Alpha Direct, Apex 2.5 and 5 yards of Dutchware Ion (got to have a shell on both sides of Apex) is the cheapest way to go, but the packing volume is much larger and it doesn’t keep its insulating qualities as long over time.

[Bill Budney]

David M: Yes, you are raising the right questions. Calendering can make a large difference in breathability, and breathability is generally good for getting rid of the moisture that your body produces, unless you are specifically trying to block wind (such as cowboy camping without a bivy). If you are inside of a shelter, then wind resistance is probably not a major concern (and you will get SOME wind resistance without calendering).

One of the main reasons to use calendering is for down-proofness, although the loss of breathability affects the utility of down, which is why synthetic insulations can be superior while active. You aren’t using down, so no need for calendering for that purpose.

Also consider Monte’s point about Apex. You probably don’t need AD’s qualities for a quilt, and you get more insulation per ounce (and per $) with Apex. I’ve had good longevity with synthetic puffy insulations if I don’t overly-compress them. So no compression bags — just loosely stuff it for longer life. AD doesn’t seem to care how much you squish it (although it does not compress as much as Apex).

[Mark Verber]

Below around 55F Apex wins weight / warmth, but above that AD is better because it’s find against the skin, e.g. you don’t need to sandwich it between fabric.

 

[David M]

Monte, Bill, Mark – thanks for the insight!   The Apex looks like a good option – I’m expecting 50 degree nightly temps for a trip this summer.  What weight of Apex would you recommend for that range?   My current system is only a 20 degree quilt so having something for the other end of the spectrum would be great plus I could use it to augment on colder winter trips.

[Monte Masterson]

I’d absolutely go with the 2.5 oz Apex for a 50* quilt. This is the best YT video I’ve seen on making an Apex quilt using the inside out method. The background music will drive you batty but otherwise the video is very informative. You’ll have to start the video at 0:00, I can’t seem to upload it that way for some reason. Also compare Dutchware prices and materials to RSBTR.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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