Please Critique my Camp Shoes

[Scott S]

I’ve never carried camp shoes, but thought for fun I would try to make some lightweight ones to see if they might be worthwhile.

Here are the goals I set for my shoes.

• Under 1oz per shoe
• Weatherproof, unlike sandals: can take some wind, and rain
• Should be as warm as trail runners
• Sole protection to prevent injuries to the feet

I want something completely closed so if you step in a small puddle for example you won’t get water or mud on your foot.

What I decided to use for fabric for this first version is 100D Robic ripstop nylon.  I picked it because it is what the ZPacks camp shoes use on the sides.  I realized after making the shoes that this fabric is in fact not breathable, but I have not found my feet getting particularly sweaty in them, only in bare feet do I even notice any moisture.  You are not moving a lot at camp so it’s not clear how important breathability is.

For simplicity this is a glued design with only two pieces of fabric glued on a foam base.   Here are some pictures:

They have a side entry which now is just a simple bit of velcro:

If you are curious how I made them I just ran glue around the edge of the foam, let it dry to tackiness, and pushed the main piece of fabric tight over my foot.  Here are a couple pictures of the build process:

These are coming in at .9oz per shoe so they meet my weight criterion.  I have been wearing them around in the cold weather we are having now and they seem tolerable in terms of warmth.  Obviously they don’t have much insulation but they do go up on the leg and that ends up giving a benefit compared to trail runners.  They might not be the greatest in summer heat, but camp is in the evening/morning when it’s cooler.  The soles are a bit too soft, I occasionally feel small rocks.  They are somewhat more sensitive than the thinnest Vibram Five Fingers shoes.  These soles use some random foam I had lying around from another project but I am looking for something that would give more protection.  Most official shoe soles are far too heavy and I haven’t found anything that is both lightweight and protective.  Note that for these shoes I could in theory move the shoe inserts from my hiking shoes into these to give some more protection, but they might be wet.

For the next iteration I am planning on using more pieces of fabric so there are not any folds on the fronts, and I hope to find some better sole material.  I also might use something a bit more breathable.  Let me know your thoughts, thanks.

[Dan]

Nice job, I think those would do the job. Most likely there will be a weight tradeoff for stiffer soles, so that’s going to be a compromise. Personally I wouldn’t worry too much about feeling rocks given how you will probably use them.

[Scott S]

Thanks Dan.  You may well be right on the soles.  I just looked up the various Vibram soles and it seems the Vibram 8868 Super NewFlex is the one they tout as being the lightest.  It is .035 oz/in^2 which is a lot heavier than the .01 oz/in^2 of my foam.  My foam is 4lb cross-linked poly that is 1/4″ thick.  It’s not really that bad in terms of comfort, I just need to be a bit more careful when there are rocks.

[Kevin Babione]

They look great – I love the simplicity.  My biggest fear with these would be a puncture through the bottom and into a foot.  Since you’re doing two layers of foam, what about sandwiching a layer of kevlar fabric in between?  Here’s a 4″ wide example that I found quickly on Amazon.  Just a thought…

[Terran Terran]

Similar to the shoe protectors that I wear over insulated WM booties. The booties have a really thin sole and really aren’t very well insulated. The protectors add another really thin sole. They’re outside your perimeters at 1.2oz.  each.  Cheap alpaca wool inserts keep my feet warm while providing the cushioning that I desire, but they’re another 1.5 oz. and the fit is a little awkward. Perhaps a seal-a-meal bag designed to contain your insoles if they get wet? Nice job.

[Scott S]

Since you’re doing two layers of foam, what about sandwiching a layer of kevlar fabric in between?

I somewhat doubt I will do two layers of foam, my hiking shoe liners can be removed but my guess is I won’t be bothered to do it.  That said the Kevlar could probably be used as an inner liner on its own.  Eyeballing the weight it will add 1/4oz to each shoe.  That’s not so bad and is definitely worth thinking about.

I am used to walking with little protection on my feet, I do plenty of bare feet in the summer and Vibram Five Fingers etc.  So I may just be able to deal with these as-is.  One more glitch with the soft sole though is pebbles easily get lodged in them.  I need to occasionally scrape the sole against the ground to dislodge a pebble.  Unbearable on a long hike but it doesn’t seem too bad for around camp.

[jscott]

I used to use pool shoes for camp shoes, and even for appropriate stream crossings. They had a very thin sole and mesh for the tops. Super light. they worked great as camp shoes. naturally I would scout the terrain as I walked, looking for things that might penetrate the thin soles. Ponderosa pine needles, sharp rocks, etc. this didn’t turn out to be a problem.

A thin sole is far better than bare feet in the backcountry, for sure. those pool shoes weighed about an ounce and a half for the pair.

[Megan W]

These look good. I’ve attempted to design my own (also water resistant for similar reasons) but hadn’t worked out how to make them easy to put on and get off 🙃. Does the side entry work well?

[Scott S]

The side entry works surprisingly well, they are very quick to take on and off.  It wasn’t the original plan, at first I had velcro on both sides but I was finding it faster to undo only one side .. so I glued the other side permanently shut.  In order to keep water out if I stepped in something I glued the bottom inch or two of the open side shut, and the gap is now just big enough to get my foot in.

A rear entry also could work well.  The usual shoe entry point on the front top opens the shoe up to taking on water.

[Jerry Adams]

Good project

I’ve screwed around making shoes a little but nothing ever really “took”

If you have a right side piece of fabric and a left side, and sew them together in a curve, you can make it conform to the front of your foot and ankle better, but that’s mostly just aesthetic

[jscott]

Sorry, in my earlier comment I forgot about the need for rain-proofness of these shoes.

Nice work and design! I can see how these camp shoes would work great in rain and mud.

[Scott S]

Yes Jerry the plan was in the next iteration I would use a few more pieces of fabric to get rid of the folds.  In fact the original plan was I was going to fold, mark, and cut out some of the folds and glue together, kind of like the “nip and tuck” of plastic surgery 😁.  I still might do that but after making them with the folds I didn’t really mind the look so much.

For my next iteration I am now thinking these guys need field testing so I’m not going to make another version of them until that.  Instead I think I can make a version for less harsh conditions which will be .5 oz each.  The soles by themselves are something like .3oz each so that would give me .2oz for fabric per shoe .. seems doable.

[Jerry Adams]

yeah, the folds are mostly just aesthetic

interesting that you can “fix” it by cutting the fabric into two pieces up and down, or you can nip and tuck the folds in a perpendicular direction

0.5 and 0.2 ounces?  those are light weights to be considering.

[David D]

Cool concept, I hope they work out.

One challenge I’ve found and never been able to solve with foam bottom camp shoes is that they can be very slippery on wet stone.  Up here on the Canadian Shield, a lot of the lakes have steep and smooth rock access to water draws and any early morning dew or rain can make them dangerously slippery with foam bottom sandals, but manageable with hiking footwear

I’ve tried affixing grit faced tape (like they use on public stone steps) but could never get it to stay adhered, even adding the strongest double sided carpet tape I could find; even when adhered, the improvement was only marginal.

This might not be a concern for your trails though.

 

[Scott S]

I had thought these would have no grip, but the foam I used has so far gripped very strongly on everything I have tried them on.  I was originally planning on taking my dremel and cutting some treads in them, and if they were slipping to put a thin layer of glue on the ball and heel areas.  I have used glue on soles for grip, it works super well.  This is with B-7000 glue, it is strong and durable but grippy.  That is also the glue I used to build the shoes.

Anyway at this point I am going to field test them on some trips and will learn if I need to do something more to the bottoms.

[David D]

Scott, thanks for the glue tip, I’ll try to give it a shot (I assume this stuff?)

[Scott S]

Right that’s the glue.  Put it on the ball and heel, try putting spots as opposed to glue on the whole area.

Note that the kind of foam you are using may also be a factor. I am using polyethylene.  EVA or EVA/PE blend or polypropylene may be more slippery.

[David D]

Thanks again, Scott

[Terran Terran]

An elastic cord around the ankle with a drawstring at the top, a tad more room to wiggle your foot in, and no Velcro.

[Scott S]

OK I’m back with the next iteration, the goal being .5oz per shoe but less weatherproofing and more breathability.  This one is a fail so I didn’t fully finish it and its only one shoe:

It might be hard to make out but this version uses three pieces of fabric, the sloppy glue on the top of the foot is where I glued the seam.  There is a third piece running around the back.  Here is a picture from the back, I did a fold/glue to get it fitting better around the heel bulge:

The weight is .6oz which is close but not quite to my .5oz goal.  I generally like the design principle of these three pieces, there are still some small creases but it’s minor.  But this fabric I don’t like at all.  It is 3.4 oz Nylon Taslan/Supplex, designed for clothes so I thought it would be comfortable.  But its not a ripstop and it seems much less durable than the 100D Robic ripstop nylon I used on the previous pair.

Anyway I’m going to try some other fabric.  But RSBTR has too many options and I am largely clueless on these.  Here are a couple that looked like they might work.  I am going to try something lighter weight but stronger, to hopefully get the weight down below my .5oz goal.

2.2 oz HEX70 XL – this has some water resistance but is still breathable, and sounds super durable.  It is also light enough so I should be at or near my .5oz goal.

1.2 oz MTN XL Hybrid Ripstop Nylon 6.6 – Also seems good, even lighter than the above but no waterproofing

1.5 oz MONOLITE™ Ripstop Nylon Mesh – Again sounds good

0.9 oz MEMBRANE 15 ECO Ripstop Nylon – I also really like this one, super duper light, looks strong, recycled to boot.  They mention booties as one good use.

My current feeling is to try the first and last options, the first one has some waterproofing and the last is super light.  Opinions appreciated.

[Jerry Adams]

Yeah, supplex is heavy.  I use it for pants and shirt.  It’s never ripped from brushing against thorn or whatever.  Barbed wire has ripped it, but at least I didn’t get bloody.  I think it’s more durable than any lightweight ripstop.

But probably camp shoes wouldn’t have to be that durable.  Try lightest weight ripstop and see if it survives use?

[Scott S]

Yes that is what I am leaning towards.  At some point there are diminishing returns, I am using something like 6% of a yard of fabric per shoe so the 3.4oz per sq yard I used above is .2oz for a shoe and the 0.9 will be 0.05oz.. no need to go any lower than that as .05oz per shoe is basically nothing.

The 0.9 oz MEMBRANE 15 ECO Ripstop Nylon looks like a really soft fabric which might feel nice on the foot.  Maybe I will order that one plus some samples of other fabrics while I am placing an order..

[Jerry Adams]

I hate it when the shipping cost exceeds the cost of the material.  I always try to figure what I could add to the order.  Maybe order minimum quantity of a couple fabrics.

6% of a yard2?  Yeah, fabric weight matters more for something big like a tent.  A little less for smaller like a sleeping bag, pack, or jacket.

[Scott S]

For these shoes I consider them something of a luxury so I want the weight super low .. as in “I may as well take them, they weigh next to nothing”.  So, every gram counts.

I ordered the 0.9oz stuff plus some samples of the others.  For some reason the shipping was only $3.50 on the order, no idea why but I won’t complain.

[Scott S]

Ok the 0.9 oz MEMBRANE 15 ECO Ripstop Nylon showed up and I made a test shoe:

Its definitely a winner on weight:

.45oz so that’s .9oz per pair.  I didn’t make the second shoe yet as I’m not sure I want to use such lightweight material.  It feels much more delicate than the two shoe versions above.  I might just go for it and see how it does in the field.  The material itself was not super hard to work with, but it is harder to glue because you can’t let the glue sit to get tacky.  There is a DWR coating and the glue will not soak into the fabric if has dried a bit.  I had to redo a few seams that came loose.  If the seam is pressed right after squeezing out the glue it is super strong, I don’t see any need to reinforce with thread.  There is a bit of a challenge to make a design that can slip-on, slip-ons often have a bit of stretch somewhere.  I had to make the opening a bit bigger so it would go on easily.  On the plus side it is only two pieces of fabric now.

One thing I think this fabric could be more useful for is a beanie.  It is windproof and a beanie of this over an AD beanie could give a good combination.  So I decided to try that:

I just copied the pattern from my AD beanie which is underneath in this picture.  I needed to enlarge it a bit as there is no stretch in it.  In a few tests so far this combo is quite a bit warmer than my merino beanie which is 1.7 oz.  This combo is only .65oz (the shell is only .15oz, the beanie is .5oz).

No, I have no idea why I picked this color.  I feel like I am ready to go into surgery.   The beanie also looks like a swim cap.  I don’t care, I’m warm!

[Author]

Posts