Opinions Please: Manufacturer Disclosure

[Monte Masterson]

My sister used to say that you should never trust a man over 40 who drives a sports car.

No need for special labels, just be sure to maintain freedom of speech, which BPL has been very good at over the years. That way if someone sees a hit job going down where one company poison drips a rival competitor’s gear they can call it out. You might not be popular for doing so however.

Years ago a clique of big egos here on BPL tried to get me cancelled (at least my posts) for calling Backpacker magazine a boring shill for the mainstream gear companies. It was a fascist cabal back then which was trying to dictate what content could be allowed on BPL and loose cannons like me were simply unacceptable. But BPL held the line on free speech and didn’t let the high-minded group of self-appointed PC police turn backpackinglight.com into a cancel culture. Most of the people mentioned disappeared once they saw they couldn’t get their way. Good riddance because it was a nonstop whinefest about everything wrong with BPL. They constantly complained about how things weren’t like they were during the Golden Age of BPL, as it was somehow the administration’s fault that the initial explosive popularity of the ultralight revolution started to wane.

[Jon Solomon]

big egos here on BPL

That’s always been a problem particular to BPL, one that you just don’t see on other UL forums. I feel like a lot of it comes from people who didn’t get the recognition they crave — and sometimes deserve, sometimes not — from the industry.

 

[Todd T]

What I would hope you’d consider is that perhaps, as you talk about your gear, you leave other makers’ gear out of your posts — not even to correct what you believe to be a misperception about another maker’s gear, that’s for them to correct if they choose to do so.

I’m going to disagree with this.  I want to know the nuanced differences between competing products, and that is rarely discernible from official marketing info.  If a question/topic comes up in the forum, why wouldn’t we want those with the most direct knowledge to offer an answer/comment?  The other mfrs are of course capable of correcting or re-correcting anything they disagree with.  This should all be encouraged!  It’s one of the things that make BPL more useful than the many other hiking forums that devolve into little more than social drivel.

[Jerry Adams]

“big egos here on BPL
That’s always been a problem particular to BPL, one that you just don’t see on other UL forums.”

I’ve thought BPL is pretty good at sticking with objective information.  Fewer personal attacks.  More geeky though than others, which is fine by me.

I don’t really look much at other UL forums though

Maybe that means I’m one of the annoying big egos : )

[Justin W]

Mid-averaged sized (maybe even slightly smaller than average) at best Jerry.

(Mine on the other hand, it’s like Jupiter on roids! ) 

[BlackHatGuy]

” If a question/topic comes up in the forum, why wouldn’t we want those with the most direct knowledge to offer an answer/comment?”

We’ll probably just agree to disagree here, which of course is fine, but my point was simply that if you have a financial interest in such a comparison, then some in the audience will question your motives for the comparison. That can breed unnecessary animosity, as has already happened. As I said, it’s about perception. I don’t think a vendor has to do a comparison of their product to another to extoll the virtues of their product.

Of course, someone could say that the perception issue is a personal issue, not a vendor issue, and I wouldn’t necessarily disagree.

[BlackHatGuy]

“That’s always been a problem particular to BPL, one that you just don’t see on other UL forums.”

I don’t visit any European UL forums, so I don’t know about those. But there are definitely big egos in the reddit UL forums. Social media is a natural attraction for big egos, I would think, but I’ve not noticed it as a particular problem on BPL or a significant problem on BPL.

[Nick Gatel]

I’m going to disagree with this.  I want to know the nuanced differences between competing products, and that is rarely discernible from official marketing info.  If a question/topic comes up in the forum, why wouldn’t we want those with the most direct knowledge to offer an answer/comment?

Isn’t this the job of the editorial staff that writes reviews? They should have the requisite expertise. They usually have easy access to the manufacturer, who often provides the gear for review, to clarify any questions.

I do need to point out that a review should entail a good amount of use in the field, which is counter to people wanting to buy a product as soon as it is announced without much information. This is Ray Kroc’s fault — instant gratification.

But I’m old. I like to see and inspect a product before purchase, which is near impossible these days for much of the equipment we use. Given that, I wait. Not wait for some “expert’s” seal of approval, but to read reviews from trusted sources and feedback from others. I’ll often wait a year or two. If the product is no longer produced in a couple years, then I probably made a good decision. I don’t buy much gear. But I have bought and kept enough great gear over the past 50+ years that it seems I have a lot in my gear closet.

[Nick Gatel]

I don’t visit any European UL forums, so I don’t know about those. But there are definitely big egos in the reddit UL forums. Social media is a natural attraction for big egos, I would think, but I’ve not noticed it as a particular problem on BPL or a significant problem on BPL.

+1

 

[dirtbag]

 

Its not nice to label anyone! Vendor or not.. woopty doo. Have some class, if you are a vendor, put it in your profile section. I dont need to see if you are a vendor or not, if I have any interest in what you are actually posting, I will usually click your profile just to see if you are legit or not or have any interesting things there.. so if you are a vendor.. link your website in your profile.. easy enough..

[jscott]

speaking for my own big ego: I’m never so mesmerized by a manufacturer’s post that I pull out my wallet and go buy their product. I grew up in a commercialized culture. You? I know the ways and wiles of advertisers. I can take all of that into account in deciding whether a product interests me. I’m not a zombie. In any case, I don’t find that happening here on BPL. Some detect “subtle digs” by some manufacturers posts made against competitors. Subtle digs?? I’m having a fainting fit! (actually, that very comment is itself a subtle dig. Ban it?). Even if that happens on occasion, I don’t come away automatically prejudiced about the competitors equipment. I’ve read tons of not-so-subtle digs against manufacturers by anonymous folks. some may hold grudges or have any number of unspoken axes to grind. Why should they get a pass? I don’t immediately buy into their opinions either. Come on! Ban manufacturers and designers from being able to defend their products against spurious attacks? Or, if you prefer, incorrect statements about their products…? and this happens all the time.

If you’re the type who falls under a hypnotic spell from words posted here about products, by anyone–I have a North Face Tadpole tent that weighs 3 grams and is far superior to any Zpacks, Durston or Shires tent available. It’s a one person but you can easily fit a yak and your wife inside along with yourself. $5.000. send me a pm.

[Jason L]

Perhaps just ask people to disclose any conflicts of interest in their profile. If the do have disclosures (vendor, silent partner, etc), add an asterisk or something to their screen/username denoting a disclosure.

No need to create a double standard for vendors or those with a potential conflict of interest.

[jscott]

Jason, you’re asking for  a presumption of good faith in sellers and ‘silent partners’ to disclose their possible conflict of interest.

And from my experience here, that’s already established. Sure, why not, add an asterix. I just haven’t seen any abuse by our esteemed designers and sellers that require this. Maybe I’ve read some words that could have been phrased better. That’s true of me too. In spades.

Why go hunting after hidden abuse where everything is out there for all to see? there are no sales campaigns going on here. We do have information being conveyed, and sometimes disputed, for everyone to see and evaluate.

[Todd T]

Isn’t this the job of the editorial staff that writes reviews?

Reviews are great, but that’s not just the job of staff.  A review generally embodies many subjective impressions of an individual.  And all individuals are biased.

So I want to see reviews and I want to hear what the manufacturers think is special about their products and why.  And it’s always informative what tidbits raise the ire of other manufacturers.  And it’s helpful to see what other users’ experiences are.  Etc.

More discussion, not less.

[Monte Masterson]

Todd T, you stated earlier ” the other mfr are of course capable of correcting or recorrecting anything they disagree with”. 

Most of them don’t want to get caught up in an interminable tit for tat comparison of their gear on a backpacking site. They shouldn’t have to. Even though I oppose any rules on what gear makers can say here on BPL, ethics should dictate that professionals don’t criticize their competitors products on a public forum. It’s kind of like “oh yes, nice tent my competitor offers now let me tell you what’s wrong with it and why my design is superior”. And by the way, this argument is guaranteed to circle back around to the fact that my design is better”. Franco Darioli finally just got exasperated with constantly defending Tarptent products and left BPL for good. He probably did it to help keep his blood pressure down. Henry S reluctantly chimes in after he’s finally had enough of seeing his tents being slighted. I’m sure he doesn’t want to but a certain point I suppose you just can’t ignore the relentless onslaught.

Let the legions of consumers sort out what they think. Sure, defend your product when necessary but anything can go too far. At a certain point you have to just let the marketplace decide. This is why reviews that are totally unaffiliated with a company are the only ones worth paying attention to. A manufacturer is of course going to have a bias which is positive toward their product(s).

[Nick Gatel]

It seems this thread has run its course with a handful of participants leaving multiple posts. Probably going to turn into a Chaff type conversation if it continues.

One thing I have noticed, after a long hiatus from BPL, is the forums aren’t very busy. On the other hand, BPL still gets a substantial amount of traffic. I suspect a lot of folks visit the forums, but don’t post (of course Ryan would know the statistics). I point this out because we are not hearing the voice of any kind of a majority of visitors. I don’t know how BPL would get their feedback, unless a survey is emailed to all registered members or some other method.

The other side of the coin are the vendors. If I were running things and felt something needed to be done, I would contact them and explain the concerns BPL has, and ask for their feedback. To be honest, it appears that vendor participation is way down too, compared to what it was 10 years ago.

[Jason L]

my general impression of BPL forums is they are incredibly civil and healthy (coming from someone who visits but doesn’t post). jscott’s post above is spot on.

 

[Justin W]

That’s cause Chaff has been erased. It was a little more wild west (sometimes a lot more).  I had to chuckle a bit to myself reading people talking about some specific others being thoughtful, considerate, respectful or what not.  Certainly wasn’t my experience of/with them. But alas, sleeping dogs and all that.

[Ron Bell / MLD]

Testing to see if my avatar/name changed to Ron Bell / MLD.

[Matthew / BPL]

Ooooooh a slash. I like!

[Jon Solomon]

Many years ago when Ron solicited suggestions for a name change, I suggested Bellwether Gear.

 

[Ben H.]

Few points not mentioned yet. There are people who developed products on here. Remember the guy who made some sandals with input from members. Fun thread. At what point does he become a vendor. Or the people who come on here asking about developing a product. This to me is what is different about BPL. There are people here who will help you figure out your design. Hate to see that become overly complicated.

Having said that vendor identification seems innocuous to me. …

I think this is a great post that did not receive the appropriate attention in the back and forth on what Dan Durston said on some other post.

When does a DIY post, that someone asks to buy the widget, turn the poster into a vendor? How about someone who is sponsored by a product but is not from the company? I think we should be thinking harder about the edge cases. When do the rules apply?

… and I agree: let’s simply label for full disclosure in a standard way and not wrap ourselves up in deciding what people can say (beyond the already established rule: be nice).

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