New HMG Quilt

[Montmolar]

@Monte Masterson: It’s similar in length and width to the Cumulus Magic 100 (so roughly 65-70″ x 55″ at the widest part little below the top + tapering down to 35-40″ or so). Fits me well at 5.9ft and 175lbs.

[Christopher S]

I am guessing that when HMG says 40 degrees they mean 40 degrees LIMIT. Not comfort. EE very well may be rating based on comfort.

[Ryan Jordan]

There is a State of Fear here that I’d like to (try to) quell a little.

That if you sleep in a bag/quilt with sewn baffles, you’re going to freeze.

We’re talking about 40 degrees here, not really that cold if you spend a lot of time in the mountains.

Sure, you lose heat at sewn-through baffle seams. But in zero-wind conditions, heat loss out of the quilt will be proportional to the average of the baffle height. Most of you (us) sleep in tents that protect us from wind. Baffles don’t do much here. I honestly don’t worry too much about baffles until we’re talking about three-season conditions.

A great example is the Feathered Friends Helios (sewn-through) baffled jacket. Considered to be the highest warmth:weight down jacket on the market, and can easily be pushed into winter conditions, especially when you add a shell over it.

When wind is present, it’s a different story. Heat loss will occur more rapidly at the thin points (sewn seams) and you’ll feel it – at the temperature limits. (Pretty standard heat transfer physics here – check your textbooks for how heat transfer works when laminar flow exists on the “outer” surface.)

So if you’re looking for a quilt for an open bivy or under a tarp at 40 degrees when there’s a breeze, you’ll need to wear some clothes in this one, or opt for something with more average loft in the baffles, or add some type of bivy sack.

I’ve spent a few nights in the new HMG quilt near its 40 deg limit. It’s pretty good, actually, and I’m inclined to say it’s the warmest quilt I’ve tried at this weight. However, I’m still trying to figure out if it’s worth the cost. My initial thought is no. But this is now a VC-backed company and very much in a scale-up/growth phase. In the outdoor industry, in physical goods, you can only careen towards an investment exit if you price high enough to maximize profit for a fairly affluent but limited market…that adds a complicating factor here but not one that should be ignored. This is a product they will sell primarily to an existing customer base that (as someone pointed out earlier) simply wants a solid product recommended to them so they don’t have to do any homework to make a decision). This is called “upsell marketing.”

But that doesn’t mean it’s a bad product. Quite the contrary. I’ve found the performance of this quilt to be very good for its weight. Just not its cost!!

 

[Monte Masterson]

So in other words this montbell bar graph below comparing 900 down fill to 1000 fill is smoke and mirrors. Maybe, but I know the 1000 fp’s from montbell (Plasma series), PHD and others sure cost a lot more. Is it worth it, I don’t know. Perhaps it’s one of the justifications HMG uses to charge so much for the quilt. And if it’s a true 40* quilt at such a super light weight than it might be worth it to buyers of means who aren’t budgeting. Besides, the only expensive gear is the gear you don’t use.

[baja bob]

For comparison purposes, I spec’d a long/extra wide Enlightened Equipment 40 deg Enigma with 950fp and 7d shell. Size dimensions are fairly close. It comes out $114 less and about  .7 ounces lighter with 10.5 oz of 950 down vs 10 oz of 1000 for the HMG based on stated numbers on the websites.

[JCH]

I’ve had everything from 600FP to 1000FP in jackets, parkas, pants, quilts and bags and in my experience the cost/performance/weight sweet spot is 800/850FP. You can pay more and carry less but 8×0 is warm, durable and light.  I also find it retains loft in humid conditions much better than higher fill powers.

My experience.

[Roger Caffin]

Yes, claims of 900 and 1000 FP ARE all smoke and mirrors.

The test method IDFL use to get those figures is almost a fraud. The European test method tests the down under reasonable conditions which you might get in the field, while the TDFL method dries the down to 0% RH – a condition which is never going to happen in the field. Under reasonable ambient conditions it is almost impossible to have an honest FP over 800, let alone 850. Down doesn’t grow that way.

Why does IDFL do it that way? Because they can sell their customers (mfrs) on the idea that they can quote higher FP figures. That gets them (IDFL) more business. The European mfrs tend to sneer a bit at IDFL and won’t use them. I can understand why.

Actually, I did see a blurb from one Euro vendor which quoted a Euro val of about 800 FP for thei gear and, in brackets, an IDFL value of about 1000, just in case anyone was wondering.

Cheers

[Eric Blanche]

Roger,

Do you happen to recall the vendor and a source? Not doubting, just doing my due diligence.

 

[Roger Caffin]

I have a lot of references about down from Europe, and their opinions are all about the same. I have email conversations with a couple of European company owners in the down game: same story.

Can I remember which company made that actual claim? Not at present, sorry. However, there is, or was, a thread on BPL entitled
‘Could high FP-down benefit from an anti-humidity treatment ?’
which was very interesting along these lines. As BPL seems to be off-line right now I can’t find it!

I do have a 2008 email series from a European who was part of a family-owned down company. I will quote out of some of his email:
There has been an interesting test, published by the German Alpine
Magazine a few years ago.
They opened sleeping bags and had the down tested at an official
instutute for down quality/loft (Hohenstein Research Institute).
Most American bags claimed to have 800 FP ended up at 600+.

IDFL (International Down and Feather Institute, Salt Lake City/Utah)
being confronted with the results had a funny explanation, saying that
this is just a proof of the unique material called down and bla bla bla.
In the end they said that this result is another reason to think about
new methods for testing to better reflect the fill-power values being
claimed.
I had to read it twice to realize that this one was not a joke at all.
But then, most of the bad bags are from companies being IDFL customers…
– – – – – – – –
Strange, but no one is/was wondering on how the birds are keeping pace
with marketing nonsense and constantly increasing fill-power values.
Somehow they should, after all, they are still the producers :)
– – – – – – –
Now European companies show two FP numbers, like 700 FP (800 US)

I had better repeat here that this was an email message from a European who was seriously involved in the down industry in Europe. I am not making this up. This was his opinion. He had many other very interesting comments to make about how down is sourced, especially from China. Note that the Chinese down is just a by-product of the duck/goose/chicken meat industry, whereas the remaining European down producers are quite specifically producing down, not meat. Different bird lines. He added that you would not want to eat the meat from the down birds!

Cheers

[Monte Masterson]

PHD Designs of North Yorkshire, UK produces elite level down jackets. They garner a lot of accolades and they don’t mind charging for their 1000 fill power products. But here they lay out their down testing methods and the international standards the company acknowledges .https://www.phdesigns.co.uk/testing-down-quality-fillpower

Montbell’s prices for their Plasma series (1000 fp) garments are almost as high as PHD’s. I’d probably be more willing to believe the Japanese and British claims about fill power over anyone else. Not to say it’s true though.

Probably lottery odds Roger that you ever would’ve met my old geosciences professor from Melbourne Dr Keith Mountain, but I had him for geographical statistics and I remember him constantly saying” you should always inherently doubt any data”. A good scientist he was, did glacial studies for National Geographic Society.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Monte

But here they lay out their down testing methods and the international standards the company acknowledges .https://www.phdesigns.co.uk/testing-down-quality-fillpower
I will take issue here. The only International Standards PHD seem to be applying are those from IDFL. Sadly, I have to say the IDFL version is NOT ‘international’, except in the company name.

From the PHD web site:
We changed our fillpower figures in 2014. PHD’s 1000 down is the same unbelievable performer that it was when we introduced it as 900 back in 2008. But over the years a new method of testing fillpower has been adopted across the global down processing industry, giving a higher fillpower figure than before for the same down.
Which says it all.
By changing from European Standards to IDFL they were able to boost their claimed fill-power from 900 to 1000. There was ZERO improvement in the down itself, but lots in the marketing spin.

I may be a a retrograde dinosaur, but I do not accept the idea that IDFL can all be themselves redefine the previously accepted (European) Standards. The way they condition the down prior to testing is unrelated to real life.

Does any of this matter? Only if you want to compare European down gear with American. But then, it has been known for decades that the American figures for down gear are inflated – see my previous postings. It is however a big disappointment that the industry chooses to go this way, forsaking honesty. (Some American pack mfrs are just as bad for volume, as I have recorded here at BPL after my own testing.)

Cheers

[JCH]

“There are three four kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, statistics and fill power ratings.”

[baja bob]

Western Mountaineering stops at 850 fill power: https://www.westernmountaineering.com/product-details/materials/

[Roger Caffin]

There are three four kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, statistics and fill power ratings.
Maybe lies, damned lies, statistics and marketing claims?

Cheers

[JCH]

What Roger said.

[Joey G]

I received my HGM Quilt in the mail today ( even though the hate on this thread ). I really like it so far. The only other quilt I’ve had is a feathered friends quilt and the material used seems softer to the touch then the FF. I haven’t used it yet, but excited to do so.

[Alexander L]

Not trying to stir the pot but I’m genuinely curious as to what made you decide to go for it despite; as you said, all the ‘hate’ for this product release.  Perhaps there is something more to the product that we don’t know?

[Joey G]

In short, I value Ryan Jordans opinion. I thought about what he said and for me, this quilt fits the need I will be using it in. Which is camping in winters in Texas and summers in Washington when the low is above 45.

I also think HMG make quality products. So I trust them and am willing to pay a little more.

And I had a 20% off coupon.

[Alexander L]

So a Zpacks 30F classic is as light , warmer and cheaper.   Even Ryan J. questioned the price.  Can you comment some more on the ‘quality’? The HMG is a sewn through construction so it’s technically inferior and much cheaper to produce.  I’m sure the fabric and down is the same as all the other top cottage companies.  What else is everyone missing?

[JCH]

Honestly, I don’t think it matters much what the details are or how it compares to any other quilt.  Those are questions to be answered by each individual potential purchaser. If Joey is happy with the quality and performance at the price he paid then that is really all that matters. Isn’t that why there are so many options on the market? Everyone’s opinions are not the same, everyone’s needs are not the same, everyone’s perception of “value” is not the same.

[Brad W]

Doesn’t look too much cheaper if at all once you choose long/broad-$469 and figure the 20% HMG coupon.

[Alexander L]

Fair points.  BUT this is a specific gear discussion thread where we debate the merits of products and their ‘value’.

[David Sugeno]

In short, I value Ryan Jordans opinion. I thought about what he said and for me, this quilt fits the need I will be using it in. Which is camping in winters in Texas and summers in Washington when the low is above 45.

I also think HMG make quality products. So I trust them and am willing to pay a little more.

And I had a 20% off coupon.

Those are all good reasons.

Honestly, I don’t think it matters much what the details are or how it compares to any other quilt.  Those are questions to be answered by each individual potential purchaser. If Joey is happy with the quality and performance at the price he paid then that is really all that matters. Isn’t that why there are so many options on the market? Everyone’s opinions are not the same, everyone’s needs are not the same, everyone’s perception of “value” is not the same.

Totally agree.

 

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