New BA tents

[Roger Caffin]

Try 3M 91022. It is exactly what I was talking about.
That said, you would have to find a dealer who could supply one roll at the width you want. Amazon lists it, but ‘not in stock’.

From the 3M web site:

3M(TM) Adhesive Transfer Tape 91022
Designed for adhesion to silicone foams or elastomers
2 mil 3M™ Silicone Adhesive is excellent for most silicones
Delivers excellent resistance to temperatures and solvents
White 2 mil PET liner adds strength and stability during processing

3M™ Adhesive Transfer Tape 91022 features 3M™ Silicone Adhesive, excellent for bonding to silicones. This adhesive resists solvents and temperature extremes. A single 2.0 mil white PET liner adds strength and dimensional stability, and delivers stable differential release for efficient lamination and other application processes.

Formulated for Silicones and Other Difficult-to-Bond Substrates
Featuring 3M™ Silicone Adhesive, our 3M™ Adhesive Transfer Tape 91022 is designed for bonding silicones. This tape is resistant to solvents, humidity and moisture as well as temperatures from -40°F/-40°C to 194°F/90°C (for short term exposure up to 500°F/260°C). The 2.0 mil polyester (PET) film liner adds strength as well as stable differential release, excellent for most laminating operations.

Recommended Applications
Bonding silicone foam and elastomeric gaskets

Also a PDF:
https://3m.citrination.com/pif/000378?locale=en-US

Cheers

[Chris R]

Roger

There seem to be a number of tapes intended for masking circuit bords and for anodizing that use a silicone adhesive. Any idea what kind of bond this would produce? Even if if not permanent perhaps they cold be helpful in holding pieces of fabric together prior to sewing.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Chris

Masking tapes are designed to withstand heat and some ‘chemistry’, but to release afterwards with no residue. The bond is definitely temporary. They would NOT do for seam sealing (for more than a night or two).

However, they do work for holding pieces of fabric together for sewing – I have done that too. But don’t sew through them: they can be very difficult to remove when sewn through.

Cheers

[Sam Farrington]

Hi Roger,

Amazon’s got a roll of it at $2,360.42.  That might come close to paying the taxes on the home this year.  Unless lowered revenues from other sources due to the virus hammer us.

Think I’m back to the Permatex sil sealant and clamps (as soon as I find light and rigid covers to protect the fabric from the clamps.  But will find something suitable.  If all else fails, can use wood, although that is far from ideal).

Note: This is all about bonding sil coated fabric with reinforcement patches. Not for the reinforcement value, that’s done with sewing.  Just to keep the patch edges from peeling up without having to fold and sew hems around every patch.  None of which has much to do with BA DCF tents, I regret to say.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Sam

Could that price be for a whole box of rolls? I rather suspect so.
Yes, siloxane tape is dearer than acrylic tape, but at least it works. (Proof: my tent.)

Just to keep the patch edges from peeling up without having to fold and sew hems around every patch.
I do that too.

Cheers

[Sam Farrington]

Hi Roger, take a look:  https://www.amazon.com/3M-91022-Adhesive-Transfer-Clear/dp/B00DD600IA#descriptionAndDetails

It does say six items, so maybe 6 rolls to a case? But another product page says ‘one roll to case,’ and is over $3K. One of my goals in MYOG is lower costs. Otherwise, why not ‘let George do it,’ and buy a ready made product.

So found this one at ~$140:   https://krayden.com/buy/3m-91022-clear-3in-x-60yd-3m70006397312.html

Am a little put off by the large price fluctuations, and not so sure I want to sink even $140 into a risky add-on cost for reinforcement patches. Have to consider that the adhesive may weigh more than Permatex bought for a few dollars, skimmed to a thin coat, rolled, and clamped.  I may be a little more weight conscious than thee.  Thank you for that earlier suggestion about the Permatex.  How strong are the bonds with 3M 91022, assuming one is not unknowingly using an Asian knock-off?

A lot depends on finding cheap covers for clamping with Permatex.    Or risking it, and laying out $140 for something unseen.  When I decide, will drop you an email, as this has not much to do with this thread, and probably belongs on the MYOG forum, where it may eventually find a home.

There was a letter in the ‘Dear Abby’ column this week from a lady whose husband was wedded to computer forums.   Abby’s prognosis was not good.   So I’ll leave it at that for now.

[Roger Caffin]

I am sure the price is for a full case of 6 rolls. I thought I saw a slightly lower price somewhere else, of about $2,800 per CASE.

But consider how much you need. Do you really need 3″ wide tape, and 60 yards of it, for a tent? I think not.

I suspect that this supply is meant for a company with a tape slicing machine. They could easily make 6 off 1/2″ wide rolls, and very fat rolls at that, out of one 3″ wide roll. One could easily re-spool the 60 yards onto 3 off 20 yd rolls. That would also be normal, and profitable.

Siloxane adhesives make a chemical bond INTO the silicone coating. This is not ‘sticky tape’ onto the surface with van der Waals adhesion; this is full welding.

However, it (normally) takes 72 hours for this bond to be fully set. Chemical reaction after all.

—-
Rethink. Husband is wedded to the screen? Oh good: wife knows exactly where he is. All she has to do is to make sure he is well fed.

Cheers

[Sam Farrington]

How curmudgeonly of you, Roger.  Oh well, love conquers all.

The 3″ tape width is good.  Two widths of it would do a disc-shaped reinforcement patch with a 6″ diameter.  Ditto a quarter circle corner patch with a 6″ radius.

But with all that chemical bonding going on, is clamping still essential?  If so, clamp covers would still be required to protect the fabric.  So why not save the $140 and just use Permatex;  although I’ve found that while  bonding with that is not a chemical bond because while good, still can be peeled apart by hand.

The other issue is weight.  Any thoughts about that?

The 72 hours is no bigie.  Always wait that long with clamping.  With clamps it’s not the bonding time that is a pain, it is the design and set-up time.  If the tape could eliminate that, with just using a hard rubber roller to assure full contact, it might be worth risking the $140.

But mustn’t we cease this thread drift.  To paraphrase the late Joe Welch, at long last have we no sense of decency?

[Roger Caffin]

For large area patches I use Permatex bonding instead of transfer tape, and sew the edges. A pass with a hard rubber roller and then a couple of books gave enough weight for me.

I use the transfer tape to make up a seam-seal tape using the same fabric as the carrier. For those who are not familiar with transfer tape, it is the adhesive alone, with no carrier film. I do this because the carriers (the film in normal ‘sticky tape’) are normally a PET or Mylar film which is very stiff and non-stretchy compared to the silnylon fabric. The mismatch in properties does bad things to the tent behaviour in high wind and also I suspect it encourages the tape to come loose. I even carry a foot or two of such ‘seam-seal’ tape in my repair kit. Actually, I carry two forms: one with 3M9485 transfer tape and one with a siloxane transfer tape. They have been useful.

Cheers

[Chris R]

Clamping? I just put a piece of wax paper over top, a sheet of firm closed cell foam, piece of board then a half gallon bottle of water.

[Roger Caffin]

Waxed paper: I will remember that one.

Cheers

[Sam Farrington]

Chris, et al;
Problem is, with clamping and bonding fabric to fabric, there must be two perfectly flat and rigid surfaces to make a sandwich that assures that the adhesive is spread evenly and penetrates irregularities in the fabric surfaces that are inevitable with a woven fabric. Perhaps you are bonding DCF or the like which may be a different story. Don’t know, because don’t work with DCF. But yes, wax paper definitely, and a rubber roller as Roger noted above.

My interest in the transfer tape Roger describes is the possibility of using a chemical reaction between the fabric surfaces and/or their coatings in order to obviate the need for a tedious high pressure clamping set-up. And I’d like the bond reinforcement patches to interfere as little as possible with the stretching of the canopy fabric; thus limiting wrinkling when the tent canopy is stretched taut.

So took the plunge and ordered a roll of the stuff on the product page linked in my Oct 8th post above.  Not optimistic, but if  I get the stuff, I’ll post a thread on MYOG describing what it was like.

[James Marco]

OK, I have had the Scout 2 Carbon out for about two weeks now.  The only problem was a bit of spray that blew in the front vent (no vent closure) during a two day storm. Not enough to soak anything, just added to the damp. I thing a larger front beak would have worked better.

As far as the floor goes, still no problems. I am still using the 2oz polycro ground sheet. (This doesn’t have any problems either.)  I believe BA got things right with this tent. Again,  very light and still does the job, at least through summer/fall I have used it. (Covid has slowed down my group activities and hiking.)

Anyway, the two person tent is fairly quick to set up. My hiking staff (single piece, carbon) is the perfect height. The back wall can be set up with a found stick, provided I beat down any sharp edges. It takes a lot of stakes though. 4 for the base/ground cloth, 8 for the tent. This is no more than it took originally.  12 7″ sheperds hooks work well enough to hold it down in ~35mph winds. It goes up in typical “Pup Tent” fasion: floor, poles, sides.

The only customization was the polycro. It held up well on the first trip, soo, I decided to make it semi-permanent. I cut it to shape, but 1″ less all the way around. I added some duct tape loops to the four corners and extending them out to the floor. It works pretty well and doesn’t catch water.

I usually set up on a small mound or slightly raised area in the woods. For a solo tent this is extremely spacious. For two people, it is adequate. Pack and sleeping bag. IT HAS CLOTHS LINE LOOPS! I think that’s great I am always wet.

[Murali C]

so, what is the total weight of your setup? does trail weight of 11 oz include stakes?

[Sam Farrington]

Roger, Chris R, et al,

So I ordered the 3M sil transfer tape from the Krayden company’s product page on its website, receipt was confirmed, the order was confirmed, and shipping was promised.

Then I received an email from a customer service rep advising, “Thank you for your order. The 3M 91022 CLEAR 3IN X 60YD is currently not in stock and requires a minimum order quantity of 16.”

Another lesson in the perils of the internet.  Regret only that I will not be able to keep my promise to assess the 3M sil bonding tape.  This rules out the use of transfer tape and puts me back to using Permatex sealant and clamping for reinforcement patches on a tent.  Hopefully, that will do fine to prevent peeling edges when the stitching is not on the patch perimeters.

I say hopefully, because reinforcement patches on a prototype sil canopy were done in accordance with the BPL article on bonding silnylon, and while the bonds looked good at first, they did not last, and showed separation lines in the directions of stress when the prototype canopy was repitched and made taut after a number of years stored in the shop (at moderate temps and humidity). Hope that the bonds with Permatex will work better. If it successfully seals vehicle windshields, it very well might.

Roger, I noted that you “sew the edges” of large area patches bonded with Permatex sealant.  If these are repair patches, as distinguished from reinforcement patches, there could be less stress on the bonds.  The reinforcement patches are at areas that include stake points, for example, and are exposed to higher stresses. That appears to be what led to the bond failures on the prototype canopy.  Should note that the reinforcement patches were made of the same silnylon, in fact from the same fabric roll.  But could you elaborate on how you ‘sew the edges’ of the bonded patches.  An email would be great if you feel that we have gone to far adrift.  Thanks.

Note: In proofreading this post, was reminded that the grain of the reinforcement patches should be parallel to the grain of the area patched on the canopy. Will make sure of that.

Murali C,
Thank your for reminding me of the importance of providing actual weights of items clearly specified. We have heard so much about “trail” weights, “minimum” weights, “maximum” weights and yet other kinds of weights, that it has become clear that most (but not all) tent companies are more interested in marketing than clarity. I’ll be careful in posting about tents (and other gear) to specify what was included, what was not; and if not, why not. For example, a recent post noted that the weight of stakes was omitted because many use different stakes of their choice. Fair enough.

[Roger Caffin]

could you elaborate on how you ‘sew the edges’ of the bonded patches.
Sure. Straight stitches at maximum stitch length. Is this optimal? I have no idea. It works for me.

My ‘patches’ are actually either anchors (for the groundsheet) or other stress points, like for guy ropes. No major repairs (yet).

Cheers

[James Marco]

The total weight is 13oz. Sorry, I should have said that. In SUL territory, at least.

 

[Monte Masterson]

Excellent James. As far as I know the BA Scout 2 Carbon is the lightest 1 person plus tent on the market. I assume it’s still made with a .34 DCF fly and .51 DCF floor?  Are you using 75 mil polycro (.50) underneath or the GG 100 mil (.70) ? Have you thought about adding a .34 vestible/beak to the front?

Glad to see there are still some other devout SULer’s here on BPL. I remember when the Carbon tents came out many people slammed them because of their “too light, too thin” materials. The Scout 2 appears to be the best of the BA Carbon family though. Poled Carbons and the Scout 1 Platinum (7d silny) don’t look near as good. Would be nice to see some pics of your setup James. Thanks.

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