Navy seals dry off inside synthetic sleeping bag

[Jerry Adams]

Karl posted this on portlandhikers facebook page

http://indefinitelywild.gizmodo.com/how-the-navy-seals-prepare-for-extreme-cold-weather-sur-1737644998

Navy seals practice by submerging in ice water for 12 minutes to get soaked and cold, then get into synthetic sleeping bag wearing their wet clothes and after a few hours dry off and warm up

This doesn’t work with a down sleeping bag

Most people don’t need to worry about getting that wet and cold, but that’s still interesting information

[Anonymous]

Yes, pretty interesting.  Wim Hof would make that look like a walk in the park, and with very little clothes, no sleeping bag, tent, hot food/beverage, etc.

If i had to do something like that, i would wear a full body set of polypropylene fishnet baselayer ls shirt + bottoms, OR Echo LS shirt over that and then a heavy weight fleeced polypropylene “baselayer” over that, and thin, somewhat tightly woven polyester wind pants over the PP fishnet bottoms.

Did they ever try this with Down of any kind?  I feel like Down might work ok, at least the Down above you. The Down below would get soaked and is compressed anyways, but the Down above you shouldn’t wet out  and collapse that much just from getting in there wet?

[Ian]

Good and interesting read Jerry.

I guess in the black ops community, you’ll figure out if you’re mission essential or not by whether or not they obscure your eyes/face in pictures. I wonder what a few of those guys did to piss off their brass.

I’m not sure that I want to re enact that drill any time soon but it’s probably best to have a submersion game plan with variations that cover the extremes as well. I’m feeling better about my recent (heavy) winter synthetic bag purchase.

[Dave @ Oware]

The SERE instructors used to teach this with down bags, in certain circumstances, but they didn’t crawl in with all their wet clothes and they didn’t spend as much effort to get THAT cold.

[Jerry Adams]

I don’t think that would work well with down

I always wear my damp socks in my down bag and they dry out within a couple hours

Once, I did it with more wet socks, and the down next to the socks lost loft and was still that way in the morning.  It had maybe 10% of it’s normal loft.  By the next night it dried out though pretty good.  I wore dry socks to bed that second night.

So, if down gets a little damp, fine, your body heat will dry it out.  If down gets a little wetter, it loses almost all it’s loft and becomes almost useless.  Eventually it will dry out.  Synthetic, in that amount of wetness, will retain most of it’s loft.  But, with proper technique, you can protect down from getting that wet.

[Franco Darioli]

A mate of mine had to do that in Alaska falling through the ice into a creek with his fat wheels bike.
This was in Feb, air temperature -30/40f.
Managed to scramble up the sides, get out his eVent bivy then the TNF -40 synth bag, put the Zlite mat under it and crawl inside the bag naked.
He then spent many hours drying one bit of clothing at a time with his body heat and keeping himself alive by brewing up some drink on his MSR XGK.
Thew tricky part was having to pull the bike out (no way to survive without his kit where he was) but doing it fast enough not to get permanent damage .
We rehearsed the situation a few times (mentally) during his preparation for that Alaskan venture, so he had all the steps well printed in his mind.
(as he was struggling to get out of the water he was counting each second, we figured out beforehand that he would have less than two minutes to make it out alive and possibly without frostbites)
So it can be done but I would have died in there….

BTW, my mate does have some nice down bags (as I do) but synthetic was chosen because the chance of getting into the bag wet or at least very sweaty was pretty high.
(getting off the bike in the wind and crawling inside the eVent bivy and then opening up the sb)

[Jerry Adams]

that was another thing in that video – drink hot drinks to help warm up

[Anonymous]

Very interesting Jerry.  I am a bit surprised there was that much of a loft lost in your (non extreme) case.

As far as synthetics go, it seems like Apex would be the best for these kinds of situations since it has more inherent structure than some of the other synthetics.

I made some mittens using Kapok (actually only one so far).  Seems promising–it’s as warm per weight, at the very least, as the best synthetics (i’m estimating since it was tested to be almost as warm per weight as duck down), while being very hydrophobic/water resistant and resists compression well since the fibers are sealed hollow tubes (a mitten or article of clothing made with it would float in the water).

I’m going to make some socks with it too.

[Jerry Adams]

I would buy Apex over other synthetics, but there isn’t that much difference.  You only have to sew around the edges, but that would probably work for other synthetics also even though they recommend more quilting than that.

 

[Jennifer Mitol]

Did you guys see this from back in April using downtek??  interesting….

testing downtek by jumping into frozen lake

[Jerry Adams]

hmmm… jumping in icy lake for a minute is definitely a tough test, perhaps worse than necesary

I wonder if one minute in the lake was enough?  But it mentioned a IDFL test that says hydrophobic down has to withstand 40 minutes submerged

I wonder if hydrophobic down weighs more for the same warmth?  thru-hiker has 900 fill non hydrophobic down and 800 fill hydrophobic down so maybe, based on that, you lose a little warmth for the same weight.  The 800 fill hydrophobic is actually a little cheaper.  Maybe in real world, the hydrophobic 800 will actually be warmer.

I think next time I buy down I’ll probably get hydrophobic

[Dale Wambaugh]

For any backcountry scenario I have my extra layers and sleeping gear in some sort of waterproof bag, so I would strip, dress in dry stuff and get in my sleeping bag. Being functional enough to accomplish any of that is the question.

If I had a down bag and no extra clothing, I would get in naked. I guess I would be building a fire to dry clothing  once I was warm enough to tackle that.

SEALS are so physically (and mentally) conditioned that it’s pretty hard to compare their techniques for mere mortals.  If you have never had a real dunking in cold water, it is an incredible.shock. Any packrafters should be thinking about this.scenario a lot.

This kind of thing is very different in a solo vs group scenario. If I had the wherewithal to make my own hot drink, wouldn’t be in trouble!

[Anonymous]

“SEALS are so physically (and mentally) conditioned that it’s pretty hard to compare their techniques for mere mortals.  If you have never had a real dunking in cold water, it is an incredible.shock.”
Yep, and the crazy thing is, is in contrast, Wim Hof would make the Seals look like complete wimps in this specific context (cold/cold water exposure).  While they would be shivering their arses off, not functioning well mentally or physically, he would be just as calm, still, and centered as someone strolling through the park on a warm day.

According to Wim himself, he accomplishes this through a combo of unique meditation practice, regular exposure, and really liking the cold.

But he’s used the first to deal effectively with extreme heat situations (ran a 26 mile marathon in the desert without drinking any water during it, with temps as high as 104* F/40* C), as well as controlling his immune system response (he was injected with a dead pathogen that normally causes severe immune system reactions).

Interesting guy. I think we all are capable of so much more than we realize, just some come to harness it more than others.  The first step is one of belief/perception though.  If you don’t think or believe it’s possible, it likely won’t ever be for you.  Then like anything in life, practice makes better, if not perfect.

[Jerry Adams]

I wonder if his pee turned dark yellow and he developed kidney stones…

[James holden]

Ive mentioned it several times before but witha hawt nalgene and a synth bag you can dry out  damp clothing

You can also dry out a light down sweater under a synth jacket …

the “dynamic rewarming” is one that quite a few folks know …. Theres been rescues out here where folks survived because they kep awake and walking around in circles just to keep warm

again stuff like fleece and synth are what allow you to do this

if you got seriously soaked on cotton or down …. Yr screwed if its cold and wet

;)

[Anonymous]

“I wonder if his pee turned dark yellow and he developed kidney stones…”

Ever going to the heart of the matter… ;)   J/K Jerry.  The point is, most people doing a marathon run in the desert with no water and in extreme heat conditions–many would suffer severe reactions and some would probably even die.  He did have definite physiological reactions during and after, but he seemed in better shape than he should have been from medical science’s current understanding of the human body and it’s capacity.

What makes the above feat interesting, is that unlike with the extreme cold ones, he doesn’t spend much time in the heat, and being of northern Euro stock (and born and raised Dutch), probably doesn’t have any innate extreme heat adaptation as say a black African born and raised person might (and if not adaptation per se, at least being used to those conditions).

I’m always perplexed why more people don’t find Wim and his accomplishments extremely interesting, fascinating, and inspiring like i do.  It usually gets mostly ignored when i bring it up.  It’s like, if it doesn’t conform to people’s expectations and beliefs of reality, it doesn’t register or they don’t want to seriously think about it?  Think of the possibilities for ultralighters and especially SUL’ers learning these techniques.  It’s the ultimate minimalism.

I don’t think he is necessarily “special” and unique (Tibetan Buddhist monks in the Himalayas’s have been using Tummo meditation techniques to deal with the extreme cold for quite awhile) .  He has taught other people to deal with extreme cold like he does.  I don’t know if the documentary has been released yet, but i remember seeing an interview with him where he talked about a research study, where in 4 days he taught a small group of individuals his techniques, then went into an extreme cold situation with them and with researchers observing and filming it.  The funny thing is, while Wim and his group were doing fine, the researchers who were all bundled up in thick coats, seemed in worse shape then Wim and the group whom were wearing shorts.

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