MLD in sil-poly .. gamechanger?

[Matthew / BPL]

I’m guessing Durston has a few thousand X-Mids out there. I don’t recall any posts about them being torn to tatters in the wind. If quality silpoly was a bad idea surely we would have heard stories. I have to believe there have been hundreds (probably thousands) of nights above treeline in X-Mids by now.

[Monte Masterson]

When I see Hilleberg, Nordisk, Slingfin and Terra Nova go silpoly I’ll start to be more won over. Also MSR, Nemo, S2S, Big Agnes, Exped, Sierra Designs and other mainstream companies are still (mostly) silnylon.

Not sure how many seasoned backpackers go above tree line with trekking pole tents. You might not even be able to stake one out. I’d personally want a freestanding tunnel or dome (or bivy).

Again, most backpackers won’t face fierce winds anyway. And I think so many people bought into the silpoly fad that maybe MLD and TT felt they had to go that way in order to keep from losing any more market share. I can’t speak for Ron or Henry though. I like the option Trekkertent has of 20D silpoly for the fair weather campers or 40D silnylon for serious conditions.

 

[Brad Rogers]

MLD and Hilleberg are tents designed for different conditions and different audiences.  My last Silnylon shelter was a Golite Shangri-la 2 that had some very thick feeling Sil, and it was pretty bomber, then I went to a DCF MLD Duomid for about five years, which I used in some pretty nasty 3 season conditions, and the past 3 years have been using an X-Mid 1P (Original Massdrop version) and have been in a few storms above treeline including snow and wintery mid at 11K feet in WRR two years ago in August.

Do I think the X-Mid Silpoly has the tear strength of to Golite Silnylon – no.  Do I think the X-Mid Silpoly is strong enough for my 3 season use -which includes above treeline use at least one week out of the year – yes.   I spent some time above the arctic circle in Brooks Range Alaska several years ago in August, where we had winds, hail, sleet, and a couple of inches of snow (again in August) and the DCF Duomid held up fine, and I’m sure the X-Mid would have too.   Would I use an X-Mid or Duomid in either Silnylon or Silpoly on a trip where I thought I might face hurricane force winds or heavy snow – no way, they simply weren’t designed for that – that’s where the Hilleberg would shine, but in that same token, the Hillegerg is a little bulky, heavy, and not very breathable for 3 – season trips.

If I were buying again today I’d have a hard time deciding between another X-Mid 1P or Duomid.  Both have things I’ve really liked about them, and both have had some updates to their designs to fix a few nitpicks since I’ve bought either.  As to Silnylon vs. Silpoly?  I’m not sure if I’d let that be the determining factor in my decision, but if I had my choice I might lean towards Silpoly.

[Chris K]

Another anecdotal data point… I purchased a Yama Swiftline in 2018. If I’m not mistaken Gen moved to silpoly early, and the Swiftline was one of the first 20d silpoly shelters on the market. It’s been pitched fully exposed in steady ~20 mph wind with bigger gusts. It’s also seen hail and snow. It’s been left up in the backyard exposed to full sun for multi-day stretches at elevation (Denver, anyway) to the point where the outer side of the fabric is a completely different color than the inside, and the original stuffsack of the same material. Over 5+ years the fabric has not been compromised in any way. Disclaimer: I’m not a thru-hiker, guide, or anything where the tent is being exposed to a really high volume of days outside per year. But under casual, real world use with occasional severe conditions, I just don’t know what else needs to happen to test a fabric’s strength.

By comparison, my old yellow 15D or 10D (?) silnylon Golite Shangri-La 5 shredded in several places over a shorter span of time, under less severe conditions.

[dirtbag]

I just ordered the MLD Silpoly Duomid XL this morning.  Something about the Silpoly over Silnylon I just like better. Talking about strength and tear probability means very little to me, as I had a DCF Hammock Gear tarp shred during a nasty blizzard while camping on Hunter Mountain in the Catskills a few years ago. Since then, I lost all faith and confidence in dcf.. sure a Silpoly or Silnylon tarp may also have faced that same fate in that storm, but it would have been a lot easier on my wallet= facts! No denying that at all!!! So, since then, I have been using Silpoly tarps and couldn’t be happier.  Maybe I have not been in those conditions again with the tarp, Maybe I will, maybe I wont, but it was that rare of a time.. once every few years, and I think I get out in all conditions all 4 seasons, plenty enough to say, I am confident in my gear that I chose to use.  Not quite sure when the Duomid XL will come into use for me.. but I certainly will pitch it in my yard for many nights in the conditions I would expect to use it in, while in the mountains.. before I actually get to take it with me on a trip. First off.. I am a tarp and bivy believer all the way, for majority of my trips. In winter snowstorm conditions I will use my 4 season tent, without thinking twice about weight or pack space. So the Duomid XL will have to wait until one of my trips (3 season) happens when mother nature decides to throw heavy rain and severe winds for extended periods of time.. I think the extra space inside there will be nice to live in for the time, as opposed to being under an open tarp with bivy in those conditions. I am banking on the Silpoly to hold up, as well as the Duomid itself. Again.. I will test it for some time at home before I even bring it out with me, but I am fairly confident it will hold up to whatever I will ever see with it. I dont plan my trips on nice weather.. i make my plans a few weeks ahead (usually), if not a night or two before, and if it rains it rains,  if it snows, god willing.. it snows! Windy, rainy, snowstorm, cold, hot, humid.. if I have the plans to go, I am going.  So obviously depending on the trip and weather conditions, depends which gear I will use.  I am actually looking forward to seeing the Duomid XL and how well it handles nasty storms.. Silpoly baby.. the wait is almost over!!

[bradmacmt]

I think a thoughtful and experienced user can make either work fine in any typical backpacking condition; ie, “it’s the indian not the arrow.”

[Jerry Adams]

silpoly has an advantage that it doesn’t stretch when wet and cold

you set up a nylon tent taut, and in the morning it can be loose so you hit your head on the inside and get wet from condensation.  But you can tighten it which solves problem.

silpoly stays more taut

maybe you can set up a silpoly tent a little tauter because it doesn’t stretch so much

I wouldn’t call it a game changer, just a little better.

I keep screwing with my tent so it’s becoming a franken tent, so I might make another.  I would probably make it with silnylon, because it’s lighter, but use 1/2 inch polyester grosgrain on the ridges.  Get the advantage  of polyester with the weight savings of silnylon.

[Dondo .]

I’m guessing Durston has a few thousand X-Mids out there. I don’t recall any posts about them being torn to tatters in the wind. If quality silpoly was a bad idea surely we would have heard stories. I have to believe there have been hundreds (probably thousands) of nights above treeline in X-Mids by now.

+1.  My X-Mid is from the first batch sent out by Massdrop.  So it’s been in use for a while.  Here’s a typical campsite:

So far, so good.

 

 

[Monte Masterson]

I slept under the MYOG 20D silpoly tarp below many nights last year and it was exposed to sustained winds I’d estimate at 30 mph and I had no damage. However all tieouts are reinforced with bonded 20D Xenon Sil Wide triangles (same material as tarp). The main thing I like about silpoly is that it seems to hold a little less water, but I find silnylon’s stretch allows it to be pitched easier, even though it does require retightening.

But if I think I might face thunderstorms where there could be 50 mph plus winds I bring my 30D MTN silnylon 6.6 tarp. I’ve had it in winds that were pretty scary and the only problem was that the stakes almost came out of the ground. That’s the failure many backpackers deal with in ferocious winds. I gave up on ti shepherd hooks a long time ago except as extras. And for longer trips where weather forecasts are too far out to predict I pack my 14 oz silnylon Solomid.

No doubt 98% of backpackers 99% of the time will have no problem with silpoly and I’m sure DD, Henry S and Ron at MLD wouldn’t sell anything which hasn’t been thoroughly tested. I guess maybe the storms I’ve been in have left me with PTSD and I just can’t get away from the fact all things being equal nylon is stronger than polyester.

[Sam Farrington]

While “DCF” or “6.6 nylon” are fairly predictable materials, polyester is not, as there are all kinds of polyesters.  So I invested a shameful sum ordering silpoly tarps.  As expected, the performance was all over the walk.  The worst one sprayed compressed water like a sieve, and the best one was amazing.  I could not push water through it at all, and it would  not puncture, abrade or rip without use of tools.  Better still, at 20 denier it was under 1.1 oz/sq/yd, considerably lighter than 20D silpoly fabrics sold by the yard.

So the bad news is no one of us can buy a silpoly shelter, evaluate it in use, and make general statements about silpoly per se.  The good news is that several of the above posts do strongly suggest excellent performance from some silpoly products in mean weather.

Again, stretch is not the issue with nylon, whatever it’s coated with.  The issue is that while AOK in fair weather, it expands in foul, and a nylon shelter will not hold a taut shape.  For those who want dry shelter and protection from howling winds, the result is predictable. and the posts on BPL in recent years should provide ample proof.

[Roger Caffin]

The issue is that while AOK in fair weather, it expands in foul, and a nylon shelter will not hold a taut shape.
Can we change that to some nylon shelters?

Cheers

[bradmacmt]

This is probably a good spot to re-post Ron Bell’s excellent observations :)

 

My observations about UL tent fabrics I’ve learned over the last 20yrs.

1: Some equal weight Silnylons and SilPolys are way better than others.

2: Some 20d silnylons are way better than some 30d Silnylons.

3: Some 20d silpolys are stronger than some 20d and even 30d silnylons.

4: Some 20d silnylon stretches way less than some 20d silpoly, even when wet.

5: Some/Most of the 20d silpoly and 20d silnylon availble to DYI’ers though resellers are not as good as the ones used by some tent manufacturers.

6: No one on any forum hardly ever talks about dry stretch on the bias. That is very important to making curved or large panels function well. Some equal specs fabrics ( 20/30/poly/sil/pu/nylon/etc) stretch on the bias very much different. Some as much as 400% more than others. I think that the dry stretch is far more important than wet stretch, at least for MLD shelter. It’s not part of marketing lit so no one talks about it. I’ve seen some dry stretch (nylon and poly/ ripstop and non ripstop) that is bad and only get worse when wet. Could this be part of the over generalized myth of wet stretch Silnylon vs SilPoly? Is there even a lab test standard for this? I don’t know. I only know how I measure.

7: Some Silnylons wet stretch less than other Silpolys. Some silpolys stretch a LOT less than other silpolys. Same goes for Silnylons.

8: Some runs of the exact same fabric from the same factory perform different. What vintage year was your 20dSilwhatever? Ohhhh- 2017 was a great year!

9: All discussion of tech fabrics exist in a tiny time compressed bubble, but get repeated as current fact for many years.

10: Labs tests on any tent fabric is only a starting point to understand the end shelter. Design, construction and sealing often is more important to any end function vs the raw material.

11: A DYIer tent fabric choice is almost always great, no matter what happens. Same fabric in a mfgrs tent is not always that great.

12: A higher HH coating can make a fabric weaker due to the higher+longer heat drying process of curing the coating. Do you really want a super high HH…maybe not?

13: Some 10/15d silnylons are stronger with less coating. How little can your marketing shaped perception accept?

14: I finally saw a 20d SilPoly that, on balance for 10+ factors, I think is sort of pretty good. Nope, I can’t say what it is except that it’s nothing on any list or post from any place anyone here has ever noted.

15. Be careful making generalizations. They can often be generally wrong. I’ve been wrong so many times I now understand the massive amount of what I do not know, maybe. Probably Ok to disregard all I’ve said above, except #14 and #15.

[Jerry Adams]

that makes sense that polyester is more variable

I have some nylon 1/2″ grosgrain from thru-hiker – 110″ slack, stretched 4.125″ with 20 pounds, 2.5″ longer when wet

polyester 1/2″ grosgrain from Amazon (who knows what that is) – stretched 1″ dry, same when wet

so, in this measurement, the polyester stretched a lot less than nylon and there was no difference when wet

On a ridge you don’t want it to stretch.  The more it stretches, the more it can deflect sideways.  Like, if the wind tries to blow the side of the tent in and flap.  Or the side will deflect down towards your face and make it more likely to brush against the inside of the tent and get condensation on you.

yeah, these are just two samples of grosgrain so not generalizable

 

[Sam Farrington]

Hi Roger;  Sorry, but no way.  We’ve had discussions about pre-regulated silnylons, and your stash of the stuff, and about my fruitless searches high and low for an equivalent in recent years. Some times it behests us to move on, especially when safety is a factor. The preferences of Dan D, Henry S, Judy G and other respected tent makers suggest a need for change.

Jerry; Don’t want to give any impression I’m talking about grosgrain, or twill tape, or other tapes.  Have had so little problem with any of them that don’t even know or care what thread they were woven from.  Super light tent fabric is another matter because it can ruin a trek, or worse.  Agree 100% with your descriptions of flapping.  Not only can it ruin a night’s rest; it can blow your shelter away like a kite.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Sam

The issue is that while AOK in fair weather, it expands in foul, and a nylon shelter will not hold a taut shape.
Can we change that to some nylon shelters?
OK, more bluntly: my nylon tunnel tents will hold their shape and will stay taut under ALL conditions. Mainly because they are designed to do exactly that.
It is all a matter of design.
I cite my many published photos of my tunnels in bad weather as proof. I can provide more if needed.

Cheers

[Jerry Adams]

sam, yeah, I know you were talking fabric but I just happen to do that measurement which may be representative of nylon and polyester in general

and not stretching is the advantage that polyester (allegedly) has

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