MLD in sil-poly .. gamechanger?

[Geoff Caplan]

In terms of silnylon vs silpoly tear strength, it’s maybe worth reiterating that these are lab figures.

Nylon degrades significantly faster than poly with UV exposure, so the gap will close quite rapidly in the field.

Also, industry insiders emphasise that with a properly designed and reinforced shelter, fabric failure is rarely an issue provided you take care to prevent rubbing against rocks and branches. And if you do experience that kind of abrasion, any marginal differences between the two fabrics won’t make a practical difference – lightweight fabrics are delicate by nature, and have to be treated with care.

So as Jon says, the new fabric should work fine for any suitable application, while hopefully offering the benefit of reduced issues with sagging.

[Jon Solomon]

Nylon degrades significantly faster than poly with UV exposure, so the gap will close quite rapidly in the field.

After hashing this out here many times, I’m not so sure that generic statements like this (about UV degradation) are useful for predicting the measured field performance of specific fabrics (or specific rolls of specific fabrics, lol). The coatings may make a great deal of difference. I’m sure that Geoff has already read this post from Slingfin, but it might be worth citing it again here. https://www.slingfin.com/blogs/the-beta/uv-and-u-tent-fabrics-and-sun-damage

[Geoff Caplan]

Well, my source was a correspondence with one of the most prolific lightweight tent designers in the industry, with access to the labs and repair departments of many of the major brands. He’s a great proponent of silpoly for lightweight shelters, because of the reduced sagging. I’ve quoted him often before, so won’t repeat the links here.

In his view, the differences between coatings and batches are probably more significant than the difference between poly and nylon66 fiber, which is pretty much what the SlingFin study seems to find. But he’s also found that on average nylon does degrade faster than poly in the field.

As MYOGers we don’t have the luxury of lab-testing each batch, but his advice is not to worry. So long as you use a 20D+ fabric from a reputable source and reinforce the stress points properly, you’ll be good for any hiking-related use.

Given Ron’s famous obsession with fabric quality and testing, I’m sure we can agree that customers can be confident that whatever he’s offering will perform just fine.

[Jon Solomon]

Well, my source was a correspondence with one of the most prolific lightweight tent designers in the industry, with access to the labs and repair departments of many of the major brands. He’s a great proponent of silpoly for lightweight shelters, because of the reduced sagging. I’ve quoted him often before, so won’t repeat the links here.

I remember very well, Geoff. And the more data points, the better. It’s always best to remember that this information comes from parties with a vested interest, whether it’s Slingfin, MLD, or the Tent Lab. By the same token, there’s still a lot of trust in the industry. For example:

Given Ron’s famous obsession with fabric quality and testing, I’m sure we can agree that customers can be confident that whatever he’s offering will perform just fine.

+1

[Ron Bell / MLD]

We will have more to say about the switch soon!  Bottom line, 98% of users will like the change in use in the field. We ;-] intice eveyone to talk more about filament count per denier strand (Poly vs Nylon) and maybe even add in twist and direction of individual filaments.  Then, if so inclined, consider deeply the effect on fabric rolls subjected to heat varibles inside a shipping container crossing the pacific in summer vs winter and create a polygraphic distribution of ratio effect on the fabric coatings and correlation of strength comparisons across forums posts on reddit, bpl and whiteblaze.  Create different charts of Sil/Sil, Sil/ PU and Sil /PE please and note the quantatative deltas skews using the known 368 different varibles in fabric production and implementation in a UL tent. I love Monday. Lets all have fun this week.

[Jon Solomon]

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Can’t wait to hear more.

Happy Easter and Tomb-Sweeping Days!

[Paul S]

To MLD: If you go to sil poly, please keep the orange (“Citrus”) color – it so beautiful, and so cheery when inside the shelter!

[Jon Solomon]

The color options were displayed earlier in the thread (#3778517) and are also visible on MLD’s Fabric Mojo page. Citrus Orange and OD Green, just like the silnylon choices of recent times.

[Jon Solomon]

FYI Ron has posted to the MLD Facebook group an announcement about the switch to 20D sil/sil silpoly. Less stretch, less water absorption, and slower UV degradation are the reasons cited. The FB post also has photos showing the colors.

Earlier in this thread, Ron said:

Bottom line, 98% of users will like the change in use in the field.

I’d like to hear more about the 2% of outlier cases for whom the switch won’t be as desirable.

I’ll also be curious to see how the Trailstar in silpoly pitches. My experience with both the Trailstar and the Little Star suggests that the stretch of silnylon is actually an advantage for this design.

[Paul S]

“Little Star?” Now I am curious. What is that, ? I’ve never heard of that shelter.

[Jon Solomon]

Trailstar on the left, Little Star on the right. Circa 2013 if memory serves.

Here’s an old informative thread about it.

There was also a Big Star in the works for a time.

And of course, the tarp that is called the Cricket today is a modified Mini Star, sort of, which was temporarily named the Solo Trailstar.

I have used a Trailstar, a Little Star, and a Cricket.

Mr Bell is a wellspring of awesome ideas that work well in the field.

[SIMULACRA]

That’s terrific news! Glad to hear it’s official.  Now, if we can only figure out the mystery of the dog. Does it really sew as great as they say it does?

[Jerry Adams]

I have found silpoly to be a little easier to sew than silnylon, less stretchy, or maybe they’re about the same, depends on which batch of each

[Sam Farrington]

Searching thru the MLD site, found that the silpoly weighs 1.4 oz/sq/yd (osy)  That does not seem like a game changer.  For example, Dutchware currently specs Xenon 1.1 as 1.0 osy, finished.  That would be a game changer, except that all the colors are very dark except blaze orange, which is a bit much for a stealth hiker.  Spoke to someone at DW, who said they had a meeting about colors, and decided to eliminate moss green, which was a nice medium green.  But no details about the decision were provided.

I once started a thread titled “Searching for Silpoly.”  Now, years later, “PITA” might be added to the title.  BTW, am not concerned about a bit of Polyether added to a silicone coating, so long as that applies to both sides of the fabric, as opposed to sil on one side and only polyether on the other.  Don’t think we need to get overwrought about a tad of added polyether to a silcoat.  From his many posts and experience with silpoly, don’t think Dan Durston would disagree.  We are fortunate to have knowledgeable and experienced folks like Dan posting regularly on BPL.

[Chris K]

Has anyone pitched a silpoly Trailstar yet?

[jscott]

“I’d like to hear more about the 2% of outlier cases for whom the switch won’t be as desirable.”

Having worked with the public in another capacity, I can confidently say: there’s no pleasing everyone. no matter what.

And: the two percent will post at length on Yelp, failing to mention, for example, that their tent failed after it had been drunkenly tossed into the giant fire they’d lit for entertainment. Etc.

[Jon Solomon]

“I’d like to hear more about the 2% of outlier cases for whom the switch won’t be as desirable.”

Having worked with the public in another capacity, I can confidently say: there’s no pleasing everyone. no matter what.

And: the two percent will post at length on Yelp, failing to mention, for example, that their tent failed after it had been drunkenly tossed into the giant fire they’d lit for entertainment. Etc.

No doubt there is no pleasing everyone. Is it really necessary, however, to paint such an extremely negative picture of those 2%?  Even supposing one has a database to confirm certain statistical trends (such as tents trashed by inebriated users), it’s always crucial for the researcher to remember that statistics create aggregate identities that do not and cannot simply correspond to real life human individuals.

We need another way to look at this, one that is more respectful of the people involved.

To get an idea of what might be at stake here (pun intended), it would suffice to (re)read this thread over at trek-lite which discusses the experience of a small minority of users — experienced and not inebriated — for whom slight changes in the dimensions and design of the Trailstar were NOT welcome and appreciated. https://www.trek-lite.com/index.php?threads/new-orange-trailstar.10520/

Ron Bell participated actively in that thread. Although Ron does suggest that user inexperience may be at fault (see his comment “we also get asked how to tie very basic knots”), he does finally admit that, “There are technical reasons the new fabric [introduced in 2020] needs to be a slight bit tweaked in the curve. Old curves on new fabric would be bad.” That’s a very useful bit of information, there. Wouldn’t it be great to know more, not less?

Look, maybe I’m just naive. But when Ron says 98% of users will be satisfied with the changes, I don’t think it’s just marketing speak any more than just an expression of haughty disdain for the customer. I may be naive but I think that it means that Ron has a pretty good idea, based on experience, of a few user types/use cases that exceed the design limits or whatever.

I don’t know about you folks but I am always eager to hear from Ron (and others) about atypical experiences. A passionate interest in shelters makes me interested in all aspects of their performance, including limits and failures. Ron has shared that kind of information before and there’s no reason to think he wouldn’t again.

[jscott]

For heaven’s sake, Jon, I didn’t name names. You seem to suggest that Ron should change the design of his tent based on the opinion of the 2% (who also don’t even agree among themselves) while disregarding the other 98%. And then of course, he’d have even more complaints. It’s endless. again, you’ll never please everyone. It’s impossible.

Haughty disdain for the customer? No, just a realistic recognition that there are limits to what one can provide.

If you ask 100 people on the trail their opinion of the tent that you’re using, do all of them have equally valid points? Imagine changing your tent design after each person comes by to comment. It’s not gonna work.

[Jon Solomon]

For heaven’s sake, Jon, I didn’t name names. You seem to suggest that Ron should change the design of his tent based on the opinion of the 2%

Whoa, wait a second there, please. You blockquoted a statement from an earlier post by me. In that gesture, you unmistakably did “name names”.

I said that I’d love to hear more, not request a change. I read Ron’s remarks about 98% as a factual statement.

[jscott]

It never occurred to me that quoting someone in order to give context was ‘naming names…’. I have the distinct impression that this is done all the time…wait, Jon, you do it all the time throughout this thread!!! and rightly so: how else can conversation proceed?

I didn’t mean to call you or anyone out. I was simply referencing my experience with customer relations. With human relations! I guess we have different styles. Nothing wrong with that!

How did you manage to change your comment after so much time?  I enjoyed being called “tiger”. rawrr!

[Matthew / BPL]

I have edited some posts in this thread today and I did not mark the posts as being edited. I was trying to be discrete so as not to distract from the conversation. The people who were edited have been notified.

Nothing here was egregious but sarcasm and name calling are not within the forum guidelines.

If anyone wants to discuss my edits you are welcome to PM me or email the forum-mods account.

and now, back to our discussion of silpoly…

[Sam Farrington]

Sounds a bit heated, not that I don’t get heated also.  It may be a product of the pandemic, although there have been some pretty heated discussions on BPL in the past.  Some have been about silnylon vs silpoly, no less.  Anyway, thanks Jon for the link to the UK site.  I’m limited to BPL only because there is not enough time in the day to read everything out there and perform essential chores.

One advantage of being an MYOGer is that minor inconveniences, even flaws, are not a concern because they can just be fixed with some mods.  Even major ones, like replacing a weighty bathtub  floor with a much lighter silnylon one that is much more durable and easier to pack (“Enlightened Magnified Goondie”).  And lately have been concentrating on making a solo tent from scratch.  A long and heavy task.  But does that make me more respectful of the trekking tent industry? Not so much.  But still try to heed the BPL “core community values”, even when infuriated with some products promoted by fanboys (See BPL warnings below the posting boxes).    Jscott, you may have noted the change of my avatar from a young coyote to an older Snow Leopard.  Rawrr.

MLD is certainly not the first to forsake silnylon for silpoly.  TarpTent, Lightheart Gear and many others have, probably because nylon has a tendency to absorb and expand when wet, which defies keeping a canopy taut in storms.  Unfortunately, silpoly, alone or laced with a bit of some polyether, usually weighs around 1.4 oz/sq/yd in 20 denier, and manufacturers shy away from anything lighter. And when they don’t, performance issues arise related to resistance to tearing, puncture and abrasion.

[Ken Larson]

Tent Fabric Coatings — Pros and Cons of PU, PE and Silicone

For those who are not familiar with fabric coatings this newly published article you will find it explain it well from Tim Hunt from Slingfin, who shares his vast knowledge of  fabric coatings.

https://www.garagegrowngear.com/blogs/trail-talk/tent-fabric-coatings-pu-pe-silicone

 

[Monte Masterson]

I can see the attraction of silpoly but all things being equal nylon is stronger than polyester. I’ll wager that 15D sil/PU nylons at 1.05 oz are as strong as sil/PU 20D silpolys at 1.25 to 1.3 oz. I’m sure the 20D sil/sil polyesters TT and MLD offers are superior, however 1.4 oz is getting kind of heavy. Of course a sil/PU mix allows for a desired HH at a lower weight (and is cheaper) than sil/sil.

I just wonder if a Stratospire or Solomid XL in silpoly will hold up to 50 mph plus winds as well as same denier silnylon does? Most people probably won’t face such a scenario but time will tell with enough heavy field testing (from those who aren’t mainly just fair weather campers)

[Matthew / BPL]

My knowledge of materials pales in comparison to many of the members active in this thread. That said, it is my perception Henry Shires and Ron Bell have a long track record of making sound technical decisions regarding their shelters. I’m skeptical that they have switched to silpoly because it’s what’s the kids want these days. I don’t think these people (or Dan Durston, or Gen) would use the hip new material if it’s likely to have a short service life or fail in the wind. Their reputations are on the line here.

If Silpoly is a bad idea we we will know pretty soon. We’d start hearing about it after this season.

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