Lower Body Insulation Comparison

[Erik Norseman]

Edit: added more details on my current clothing and added some specific questions below.

Hi folks, hoping people can chime in a bit on lower body insulation for late shoulder seasons.

Typical conditions: Around freezing. +3c down to -5C, maybe -8c max low. Short days means more time at camp/static, where having some insulation on the lower body for me is very nice.

Current setup:

Generally sleeping with a quilt (currently using a 20f Vesper which is comfort at 0C – planning to upgrade this to a katabatic flex 22, which might influence these other decisions somewhat…) I currently wear Patagonia Capilene Air bottoms (fraying and discontinued and needing replacement, hence this post) and Nuclei Pant from Arc’teryx (winter weight climasheild Apex synthetic pant weighing 370g). Nuclei pants are cosy but totally overkill. On top I wear Airmesh from MWH and Nuclei FL jacket (65gsm coreloft continuous/climashield apex), which should be fairly comparable to EE Torrid Jacket in warmth.

I live in Canada and have easy/affordable access to the following options: Arc’teryx Cerium pant, MHW Ghost Whisperer pant, Alpha Direct Camp Pant Farpointe Gear 90gsm legging with Arc’teryx Squamish wind pant. That said, I’m interested in experiences folks have with these products or similar (e.g. down or synthetic insulated pants with similar fill weight or gsm warmth). I have none of these options and am trying to figure out what to buy and experiment with – and what order in which to make purchases. 

Some specs:

• Cerium pants: 220g with 36g 850+ FP and synthetic insulation along rear
• MHW GW pants: 280g with 62g 800fp down
• Farpointe Alpha pants: 118g in 90GSM
• Arc’teryx squamish pants: 115g

Some considerations.

Alpha/Wind pant:

• Alpha pants will double as sleep clothes. I generally prefer not to introduce too much moisture into sleep clothes by wearing them around camp a lot. So while multipurpose, that is a pro and also a bit of a con.
• Alpha pants require fully undressing, putting on alpha pants and then putting wind pants back on (and/or hiking clothes if dry and relatively clean).
• Wind pants can be applied alone on hiking clothes, both while at camp (which could be enough to reduce a chill) and are multipurpose during the day. Sometimes I use shorts at this time of year still during the day for fastpacking missions so wind pants would be nice addition
• Can wear both while sleeping to prevent impact of drafts somewhat (but I don’t know if sleeping in wind pants is pleasant and whether they will make a big difference for drafts)

Cerium Pant and GW:

• Cerium pants have very little insulation. Is it enough to take the chill off? Are they verging on useless? I have not seen them in person to estimate loft and the fill weight amount I have could be off. They might be the perfect “just light enough” option to take the chill off and boost sleep system and minimize coolness from drafts
• GW are a bit heavy – they have pockets and other features. Once we approach the 250-300g weight it is almost worth just busting out winter weight puffy pants at 350-380g.
• GW can be had on sale for rather low prices
• Both pants have ankle zips (would be nice if they didn’t in some ways) but both easily layer on TOP of other clothes, which is convenient
• Extra down pants boost sleep system and help with quilt drafts, probably better than wind pant and alpha leggings.

In conclusion, the wind pant/alpha combo is very versatile and light, but probably better suited to above freezing and will not contribute to boosting my sleep system. Down pants will be able to layer on top of hiking clothes at camp, and alpha pants (which will be sleep clothing) during the night and boost warm of sleep system. Down pants will help with draft control more (I suspect). Therefore, I think that having both Alpha+windpant and lightweight down pant would be great, but I’m curious to hear about their distinct and/or overlapping use cases.

The questions remain:

1. Which pant between cerium and GW? I lean towards cerium for weight, but wonder if it is warm enough/noticeably warmer than Alpha leggings and wind pants.
2. Are alpha leggings (90gsm) warm enough for these conditions? I have not used alpha yet. 
3. Do alpha leggings and wind pants block drafts at all? I love using my Nuclei Pant (370g winter weight synthetic pants) in my quilt as drafts almost cease to exist.
4. Curious to hear what others do different or if folks approach this problem in a different way! 

[David D]

I’ve never needed more than Lifa polyprop leggings under hiking pants around camp to -5C, so long as the core is properly warm.

The benefit of the Lifa is that its my sleep garment (dual use) and is pre-warmed when I crawl into bed.

I’ve never had an issue with moisture retention because its polyprop but also because we don’t generate much if any sweat in camp.  Any sweat is also quickly baked off by body heat.

They’re never wet when I crawl into bed and I sweat a lot.

[Bill Budney]

Alpha pants require fully undressing, putting on alpha pants and then putting wind pants back on

Yeah, that’s annoying.

I approach the problem slightly differently. I’m not sure whether this would work for others, but I just wear lightweight athletic warmup pants. They are soft and comfortable for sleep, stretchy enough to go on/off over shoes/boots, dry quickly, breathe well in warm weather while two layers block wind well, and they are loose enough to wear two layers when cold. It doesn’t matter which layer is on top, so I can put them on and take them off in any order. They serve as base, insulation, and outer layer.

Wind/rain pants/chaps/gaiters over them for extra warmth.

 

[David D]

I use reebok warm up pants for some day hiking from ~ 5C down to -5C because of the enhanced comfort (then lightweight nordic pants below -5C) but not if overnighting or bushwacking as hiking targeted pants have better pockets, water repellency and durability

[JCH]

Alpha pants require fully undressing, putting on alpha pants and then putting wind pants back on

Yeah, that’s annoying

Hahaha.  Getting (re)dressed at the end of the day is one of my favorite things…getting nekid in the woods.

Seriously tho…I’ve never found the process of getting out of my hiking clothes and into my warm camp clothes to be anything but luxurious.

[Paul McLaughlin]

I have Alpha Direct 90 pants – and also 60 – and the 90’s are pretty warm. Even without a shell they are warmer than the expedition weight long johns I have had, and powerstretch tights. Warm enough that after using them for summer camp/sleep wear I made the 60 weight version for my summer kit. How they would compare, assuming a shell, to the ceriums is hard to say as I have never had my hands on the ceriums. But they look pretty thin in photos, and my guess is not a big difference, due to the fact that the AD gives you a completely consistent layer with no sewn through spots while the down pants have all those stitching lines. That said, the 90 pants with a shell would be doubtful for me in the temperatures you describe, but I run cold. I would be tempted to bring the following: my lightweight hiking pants, which I would be wearing all day during the day; my 60 alpha pants to be long underwear in camp; my 90 alpha pants to go over the hiking pants,; and light wind pants ( I have some in the 3 1/2 oz range) to go over everything. That setup has numerous options and all together should be pretty darn warm – with the caveat that it does not make sense to layer alpha over alpha without a fabric layer in between, as the fibers interlock and you do not get the full loft you would with a layer of fabric in between.

[Adrian Griffin]

Legwarmers might have a place in this. I’m a fair-weather backpacker, but on cool mornings and evenings in the Sierra (40–50°F) my legs and knees get cold. I don’t need longjohns because my trunk is plenty warm enough. So my morning and evening rig is cheap coral fleece legwarmers from Temu with EE Copperfield windpants on top. My day hiking shorts go on top of the Copperfields to protect them when I sit down.

Late fall, I’d take the thicker fleece legwarmers I got from Amazon. I’d be in the market for some Alpha Direct legwarmers, but nobody makes them.

You need a warmer rig than mine, but maybe with legwarmers you can get away with lighter pants or base layers.

[Erik Norseman]

Thanks for all the replies.

Paul – how much does your double alpha setup weigh?

Anyone have experience with the Ghost whisperer pants?

I find having puffy pants creates a nice buffer for quilt drafts. Part of why I like to reach for them sooner in the year is to make sleeping very cosy. Do alpha pants plus windlayer work well for that, or no? When I wear my cap air bottoms (very breathable like alpha) the drafts are gnarly. Would a wind pant on top make a big difference? Or is the puffy loft of the down really the key?

[baja bob]

Comparing Alpha to down or other synthetic insulation like Apex is an apples to oranges comparison for below freezing temps in my opinion. Alpha is not a great static sitting around camp insulation regardless if it’s 60, 90, 120 or doubling 60.

Wearing Alpha with a shell will help keep the draft out. I have a top and bottom set I use for sleeping.  Definitely feel a difference adding a shell over the Alpha. Alpha with a shell is more summertime static insulation.  I believe Nunatak posted a while ago about using a 180 gsm Alpha jacket that he said was warm below freezing.

[Terran Terran]

I’ve had the MHW GW pants for a couple weeks. I got them for half price, which I think they’re worth. Wearing the fishnet under them, they’re very comfortable. Nice enough to wear in town. Below freezing, wind pants help. The leg zips help vent and allow for taper.  I find the NatureHikes from Amazon to be slightly warmer and a few grams lighter at 1/4th of the nonsale price of the GW’s.  I find myself mostly wearing the GW’s. I’d compare them to the EE’ Torrent for warmth. Warmer than my 90gsm AD pants. With or without wind pants.

[Erik Norseman]

Hey Terran Terran,

Thanks! This is very helpful. Any sense of how GW would compare to alpha and wind pant as far as draft protection in a quilt?

I now realize that the EE Torrid pants are an options for me. Would you suggest going that route, considering they are similar warmth and much lighter? I can probably get the GW pants on sale here for less than the EE Torrid, the price difference is maybe $80 CAD. But the torrid will be a fair bit lighter and I do kind of like synthetic for pants since they are more prone to damage. Down pants, however, will last longer for sure (assuming face fabric holds) as the synthetic degrades over time.

Do people have any estimates on how long you should expect a synthetic Apex jacket or pants to last you before the warmth is seriously compromised? I have read Stephen Seeber’s tests in the past but not sure how well they translate to real world applications. Lets say you use something 20 nights a year, how many years would torrid pants last before they pack out quite a bit (and lets assume you sleep in them most of the time)?

[Terran Terran]

My torrid pants held up for 3 years before the 10d liner seams started failing. I used thrm for yard work and everything else. Maybe 90 days a year. The insulation in the knees and rear was stretched and slightly torn. Over the years, I really didn’t notice the difference, though I’m sure there was some. They’re very basic pants. A shockcord for the waist. Easy to layer under. I missed having pockets.  No seams. Its hard to beat down. The GWs are easier to layer over. The extra features on the GWs. If you can get the GWs at a good price. Depending how you sleep. I prefer the AD to sleep in. Its colder if you like sticking a leg out. Then depending on the weight of your quilt on how much insulation you need. Overall, the Nature Hikes @ 55USD are the best deal.

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