I've fallen down the rabbit hole of synthetic insulation

[Jason G]

For about a month now I’ve been looking for a jacket for work this winter. Basically I need something that can handle -10 F wind chills while I stand around outside. So initially I thought I would get myself a nice down puffy, however it needs to be very durable because I am surrounded by rough concrete walls and I would hate to tear a nice new expensive jacket, so I began looking down coats with gortex shells, which seem to be few and far between. Now I have ventured into the world of synthetic insulation and clo values (which for the life of me I haven’t been able to figure out yet). So now I am trying to figure out which synthetic insulation is the warmest. With most companies seemingly using proprietary synthetics there seems to be only subjective information about warmth, with the exception of Primaloft. It seems that Primaloft gold is the most comparable to down, however I do not know how any of the proprietary synthetics stack up against it. So what is the consensus on quality of different synthetics compared to down? Suggestions on a down jacket with a rough and tumble shell?

[Bob Moulder]

Maybe something like this?

[Jerry Adams]

Not that much difference between different synthetic insulations.  Twice as heavy as down for the same warmth, more tolerant of getting wet.

Primaloft Gold (previously known as Primaloft One) is a little warmer for the weight than other synthetic insulations.  If you’re MYOG, compared to other synthetics, it requires more quilting to prevent it from shifting, but if you’re buying a jacket then that doesn’t matter.  The properties that make it warmer may reduce it’s lifetime – it loses it’s loft over time.

[Jason G]

Bob- Thanks for the suggestion, I’m worried 650 fill power might not b enough since I’m just standing around, but the heavy nylon shell is spot on. I did find one there with 800 fp, but the shell 2.8 oz 30D ripstop polyester, not sure about the durability of polyester compared to nylon.

Jerry- So theoretically 100g of Primaloft Gold would be the equivalent to 50g of down, but what fill power? I imagine that would be around 650?

[Jerry Adams]

100g of synthetic insulation would be the equivalent of 50 g of 850 FP down, approximately.  And 65 g of 650 FP.

Primaloft Apex is 0.82 clo/oz/yd2, Primaloft One is 0.92 clo/oz/yd2, so 100 g of Apex would theoretically give the same warmth as 90 g of One.  Except you need more quilting for One so you might lose a little of that advantage.  And Apex compresses less than One so in an actual garment you might lose some of your advantage.  And depending on other construction specifics it could be different.  And maybe depends on how windy it is…

Depending on details, about half the weight is the shell fabric which is the same for different insulations.

[jimmy b]

I’m worried 650 fill power might not b enough since I’m just standing around

Jason, I may be wrong but as I understand it  the 650 fill would be comparable in warmth to higher values of down fill if compensated by more fill weight as Jerry touches on above. For your purposes the 650 down may actually loft the heavier shell better. Even with the extra fill weight you would be far ahead of a synthetic in the same jacket config. Of course all of this would be based on knowing what fill weight/fill power you desire and how much more 650 down would be needed if you are basing your specs on a higher down value.

 

 

[Jason G]

Jimmy- The fill weights are not listed on the their website, so I am assuming that they are the same or at least close, I could see how that a lower fill power resulting in more fill could provide additional loft though, never thought about it like that.

[Jerry Adams]

yeah, what jimmy said : )

Ryan and others have hinted that lower FP down tolerates humidity better than higher FP, but I don’t remember seeing anything definitive.

So, in realistic use where the down is subject to some humidity, the higher FP will suffer more loss of loft than lower FP so you lose some or all of the improved warmth per weight

[Jason G]

Jerry- So what your saying is that approximately half the weight of any given jacket is the shell/ fabric and the other half is insulation?

[James holden]

just buy a durable 650-750 fill jacket for fairly cheap

many of em have durable shells (70D+) and are fairly cheap

many retailers make their own and you can often find em on sale

as an added bonus you can try em on in store

or if you really want you can spend $$$$ on a canada goose parka (or one of the copies) that will last a lifetime and youll never feel cold again … they use those in the antarctic

;)

 

[Kodiak Firesmith]

and when you start letting down out through abrasions in the shell, just patch ‘er up with Tenacious Tape gear tattoos.  I’ve seen people keep down jackets going for a really long time by taping up all the holes and tears that are certain to happen.

 

If it were me I’d probably do 300wt fleece, then a down jacket, then a hardshell.  Even then I’d be cold just standing around.

I don’t think anyone else has mentioned it yet, but layers and feet/hand/head layers will be every bit as important as your coat in such cold IMO.

[Peter Treiber]

Carhartt.  Affordable and good enough for every other working stiff…

[Bob Moulder]

I remember ye olde dayes when 650 was primo, lol.

I concur with jimmyb……. the stiffer plumules of lower FP down stand up better to a heavier shell.

One thing’s for sure, down will still be fluffing up almost like new long after (as in many YEARS) synthetic fills which lose considerable loft after only a few months.

[Jerry Adams]

yes “approximately half the weight of any given jacket is the shell/ fabric and the other half is insulation”

 

[Richard Nisley]

Jason,

You said in part, “Basically I need something that can handle -10 F wind chills while I stand around outside.” The simplest answer I can give you, that doesn’t require any understanding of physiology and physics is: buy a LL Bean Baxter State Parka to most cost effectively accomplish your construction work application. It is an excellent value at its current 20% discount. Only the LL Bean temperature rating aka the “light activity” is close to your application (it is for slow walking rather than for standing).

[Jason G]

Thanks for all the help guys, I’ve narrowed it down to a few down  jackets from LL Bean and Eddie Bauer. I think my biggest mistake was mainly looking where I get my backpacking gear instead of looking at more “mainstream” clothing companies. I guess I didn’t think down options would’ve been as readily available from them, but they definitely have some good options that match what I’m looking for, thanks again.

[James Marco]

Down and synthetic comparisons are a bit awkward, since, the only place down is less effective than synthetic (Primaloft for example) is wet. About 40-45 years ago I worked a few steel jobs in winter when I took some time off from school. I used a synthetic snowmobile suit with a down (it didn’t list fill power) jacket under it and two pair of pants to -20F. After three seasons the suit was pretty much destroyed, even with a heavy cotton outer layer.

1) The jacket I had for many years after that. Durability is better with down, roughly 4-5 times better.
2) Overall comfort/heat retention was good, but cold was a fact of life. For two months, January/February, you tolerated it.
3) Down will “automagically” adjust to overheat by becoming damp with sweat, loosing loft and compressing. If it got cold again, a simple opening of the outer suit, airing it out for 20secs-10min would dry it allowing it to retain warmth a bit better again. In practice, the zipper was at various degrees of open, allowing ventilation, so, it was easy to regulate. Always playing with the zipper depending on what you were doing.
4) Down beanies did not work too well under hard hats. Syntehtic or wool was the choice. Face masks often worked at any height (say above 20-30′.) Most everyone had a beard and mustache.
5) Most used some form of suit with the primary insulation below it. In the trailer, you can slip this off your body and slip your jacket off to prevent overheating.

Yes. Avoid backpacking gear. It is too light weight to have any real durability on site. Typically BPing gear will have about 1/4 or less insulation(down) for the weight of a jacket. A cheap (preferably cotton or denim working steel) jacket will be somewhat more in shell weight. These are very hard to find. Today, I didn’t find any looking quickly on the web, so, you are likely stuck with synthetic.

Boots, well, a couple sizes over size will allow three to four pair of socks. Wool is preferred. Forget about keeping your feet dry, ventilation is fairly unimportant since the wool will soak most perspiration after 6-7 hours. Gloves were 3-4 sets: Usually, a set of liners (mid or heavy weight) a set of gloves, and a set of hunting mits that allows your fingers to slip out as needed: medium large to xlarge are the sizing order. Same for long johns, usually two sets: small stretchy tights, medium weight woolies over that. Anyway, this was good to about -20 or so. You need to adjust to expected temps for the day and over the course of a day.

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