I need a warmer sleeping bag system Opinions needed

[Edward John M]

After spending almost a whole day in Tiffanys on our last visit to NY I think I have a pretty good idea Roger although a paltry 3 zeros won’t go far in Tiffanys.

Hearts and flowers combined with Emeralds Rubies and Sapphires in a Platinum setting.

 

 

[Edward John M]

I just weighed my current system sans mattresses

Brooks Range half bag/J&H Everest summit bag/Overfilled down parka/goretex bivvy/ MYOG synthetic overbag and it comes to 5120 grams. the old down parka is ~ a kilo of that and I could go lighter as the half bag covers all of my torso but it could also be my day-time around camp warm layer.

This is heavy but is it reasonable for the temperature at the extreme?

[Roger Caffin]

One would have to say that is a bit heavy.

Exped UL7 mat: 450 g, used to -10 C
MYOG down quilt: 700 g, used to -7 C but see below.
BPL Cocoon: 255 g, synthetic insulation
Thermal base layer: 390 g (top and bottom)

For this to work at -7 C, you need two people snuggled together and sharing one or both of the quilts. I doubt it would work as a solo rig.

So I would say you have lots of shopping opportunities! :-)

Cheers

[Edward John M]

Point taken but I think what I listed would be a -55C survival rating thing.

I have no idea if using the bivvy in between the SB and the overbag would help or not as it is never cold enough here  to find out.

I do know that I don’t need the SB to be warm at -25C tho using the other bits because I tried it a while go on Wolfjaw in the Adirondacks. Slightly warmer MYOG modified half bag and no down parka just the old mohair jumper and a Patagonia nanopuff bivvy top.

Roger do you have a contact with a blast freezer that would let me try it out one night?

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Edward

Sorry, no blast freezers known.
We just test in the mountains, in frost hollows and frost valleys. Ah – I had better add that our testing is usually by accident!

Cheers

[Edward John M]

I have a frost hollow nearby my winter camp but even there it has never got lower than -21C and that was a long time ago.

I doubt any BPL members use the US army MSS, but that weighs 9 pounds +/- and is used by a few cash strapped winter campers who use motorised transport.

 

 

[Edward John M]

Well I could buy or MYOG an EE Enigma APEX overquilt and save a half a kilo and ditch the goretex bivvy bag

The overfilled parka tho is resistant to wind compression of the insulation so if wind is going to be a factor in clothing I don’t see an advantage in not using it

[Edward John M]

I’ve read Jorgen Johanssons article on LW winter trekking and Andrew Skurkas gears list and I am beginning to think that with some minor modification I can avoid buying a new winter sleeping bag and spend the saved money on a new LW winter solo tent and a medium weight down parka

I have 2 versions of my winter bag, a standard version with 650 FP Chinese down weighing 1450 grams and another filled with 900FP Polish down weighing 1120 grams and both rated conservatively at -4C.

Wanting to get the weight as low as possible but also having experience that the lower lofting down is more resistant to long term wetting out when Nikwaxed and suffering less from compression issues if I use a quilt over the top I am having trouble making a decision on which sleeping bag to have rejuvenated, One Planet will charge $120- to wash tumble and top up.

My present thinking is to have the lighter bag topped up with 100 grams of 850 FP down, the maximum under the service charge.

This leads to the secondary question of what weight of APEX to use in the MYOG over quilt, 2.5 ounce for a 5 to 10C boost or 3.5. ounces for a 10 to 15C boost.

I’m also going to ask the same question in the Gear frum

[Roger Caffin]

20+ years ago I might have suggested buying a much warmer bag, but with global warming affecting our ski fields – I doubt the need now.

One Planet has some very good down. Adding 100 g of 850FP to the 1120 g bag sounds a nice idea.

One thing I would strongly recommend is to take a close look at what mat you have. Too many ‘cold’ sleepers have only their mats to blame.

Cheers

[Edward John M]

Thanx Roger, and S2S assure me that the Comfort Plus Insulated mat is warm enough, especially if I boost it with a CCF/ Ridgerest.or even both if it is going to be really really cold

I am going to put that mattress pocket in the foot of the overquilt too, that being my oen gripe about snow camping, I always seem to roll my feet off the end of my mattress and wake up with cold feet

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Ed

> Thanx Roger, and S2S assure me that the Comfort Plus Insulated mat
> is warm enough, especially if I boost it with a CCF/ Ridgerest
> or even both if it is going to be really really cold
We have a 1/8″ CCF mat under our Exped UL7s, and the combo is excellent.

> I am going to put that mattress pocket in the foot of the
> overquilt too
YES!
Our over-quilt does this too, for the two of us. Without that pocket it would never work.

Cheers

[Eric Blumensaadt]

I have two cold weather sleep systems:

1. To +5 F.-> Western Mountaineering Megalite (factory over stuffed W/ 1+ oz. down), Thermarest Trail Pro mattress, insulated (down or synthetic) pants and jacket, light fleece balaclava. A light synthetic quilt would add another 10 – 15 F. This is all based on me sleeping inside my double wall solo tent.
2. To -20 F.-> LL Bean -20 F. down bag with “Dri-Down” DWR on the insulation.  This is  size Long bag for storage at the foot. Same Trail Pro pad and same solo double wall tent. With insulated jacket and pants I could possibly go to -30 F. (BTW, this is about the best down winter bag for the money anywhere.)

IF I had to do a trip of more than three days I’d want a light synthetic quilt over either bag to hold most of my body moisture. This is the best way I know to keep that moisture from condensing (and freezing) inside my main sleeping bag.  The alternative is to use a full bag Vapor Barrier Liner in the bag. Likely I’d make my own VBL, made of seam sealed light silnylon.

[Edward John M]

Well I do envisage these trips taking 3 to 7 days each. While I haven’t tried it yet I don’t think that there is enough room inside the bag + half bag to wear my insulated pants for any warmth boost on my legs; ditto down or synthetic bivvy boots. My big sleeping variable is and has always been which parka I wear.to sleep in.

If I knew that the temperatures were always going to be very low [ that is -30C and lower] then makiing the down layer decision would be easy but that great big down parka is more of a stand alone garment over underwear than part of a graduated layering system and it does weigh over a kilo. If temperatures are going to be relatively mild [ say -18C to -25C] then I would consider a downie somewhat lighter that would work as a layer as well as for sleeping in or simply use the UL Uniqlo and carry more fleece

 

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Skurka recommends a VBL clothing system for both travel and sleeping with sub zero (F.) temperatures. The same VBL shirt, pants, socks and gloves are used day and night to save weight from a VBL bag only for sleeping. You’ll need a thin 100% polyester or polypropylene base layer for this.

My use of 3 mm neoprene divers’s sox VBL (US DIVERS is the best) over a thin poly liner sock has been very successful for the last two decades in keeping my boots dry and warm.  **Best to change to a clean pair of the thin liner sox every day. Place used liner socks in a Ziplock freezer bag! (Don’t ask.)

[Edward John M]

I may make a VB suit/ I may not.

But seeing as how Nunataks prices on APEX over quilts are so reasonable and that they will do custom work I will probably just buy a 3.5ounce overquilt from them to give me the 10 to 15C I may need

[Edward John M]

Working with Nunatak now on tweaking the design on a custom quilt using the 3.5 ounce fill, uninsulated pad sleeve and a half circle footbox to fit my size 13 feet

[Edward John M]

Well it isn’t cheap by any means but I just finalised an order for my quilt

I went with an extra wide so that I could have space to use as a double in summer or for emergency warming someone in winter. I know am paying a weight penalty for going extra large but I don’t see any way around it in deep winter

[Eric Blumensaadt]

RHB Designs makes nice VBL clothing but it IS pricey.

Your less expensive route is Warmlite (formerly Stephenson’s Warmlite). They have far less expensive VBL gear.

 

[Edward John M]

That’s OK Eric, if I need VBL we’ll DIY

Just now I’m wondering how to start getting the total weight of the system down. Getting a new LW down jumper may be a good starting point and substituting a 3/4 pad under the torso would save 100 grams

I’ve looked at the gear list For Andrew Skurkas Arctic trips and there is no way I can afford to match His UL gear so I’m wondering what a reasonable total weight is, so I can trim some other stuff to make up

[Edward John M]

Well one way of getting the weight of my sleeping system down is to buy a new down parka that is only half the weight and using insulated trousers and down socks rather than a half bag.

My Patagonia MARS/Micropuff pants only use 85GSM Primaloft insulation but if I wear them over a layer of fleece or pile that should be enough of a boost.

I suppose the same then applies if I wear a fleece or pile layer under the new Nunatak Skaha pullover I am ordering

[JayC]

Perhaps you mentioned this – but is this trip supported?  Are you going to be carrying your own stuff?  Are you going to be sleeping in a headed tent, and how long are you going to be out?
Those all make a pretty big difference on sleeping gear selection.

[Edward John M]

Hi Jay I’m thinking about the cold tenting parts of my trip; which may be solo for part of the time.

I’m happy with the boost my new Nunatak overquilt adds but I am a very cold sleeper, Always have been and I know from experience I’ll be more comfortable in a bag that is much warmer than usual for the conditions, if it means I need to buy a new sleeping bag I shall. I know I need a new down jacket

So to answer your question I’ll be limited by the amount of gear I can easily drag in a pulk

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Edward

Also consider adding a 6 mm CCF mat under your main mat. Time and again it turns out to be the mat which is the limiting factor.

Cheers

[Edward John M]

Roger this is very true and my recommendation to anybody who asks, but it is such a low cost option that I’ve been concentrated on the high cost side of things.

I’ve found over the last few decades that I am tending to sleep colder and colder and I think I’ll need to make at least a 10C allowance for this trip. Perhaps even 15C to account for fatigue

I tried an experiment in the back yard last night with my Wet-Cold survival system for the ski touring back pack, theoretically it should have been warm at -10C, I found it adequate at 1.6C and light rain and using a Ridge Rest Solar plus an old Thermarest

I don’t think 6mm will cut it tho and when I’m ready I think I’ll be using the combination of a full length 12mm CCF + a short RR Solar + the S2S Comfort plus, the pad sleeve on the overquilt is designed to take that combination

Roger I had also considered out old Bogong High Plains technique of putting the 6mm under the floor of the tent rather than using a footprint

[Roger Caffin]

Eh, what can I say? 12 mm of CCf is better than 6 mm!
I only suggested 6 mm because we use a 3 mm CCF under our Exped UL-7s, down to about -10 on grass. But – there are two of us, snuggled together, which makes quite a difference.

Cheers

[Author]

Posts