How bad is hard stuffing synthetic insulation on lifespan?

[Monte Masterson]

No compression sacks, just stuff sacks where items are jammed into as small of a volume possible. I’ve heard different things over the years, like forcefully stuffing isn’t that bad for down but it considerably shortens the lifespan of sheet and loose-fill synthetic insulations (not AD necessarily). Any informed opinions?

[Bill Budney]

Any informed opinions?

Um, maybe not exactly that, but my experience has been pretty good with loosely stuffing synthetic insulation. No deflated/squished/ruined items to report in several years of carrying stuffed synthetics in my pack.

However, I make it a point to NOT try to achieve a small volume, so your experience may/will be different.

(AD should be fine: squish away. It’s the higher-loft stuff that has a reputation for losing loft, but usually that is related to squishing it tightly.)

[Terran Terran]

I’ve been stuffing insulation for years and I’m still alive…that said, I tore apart an old pair of Apex torrid pants that I had abused for years. The main damage to the insulation was in the seat and the knees where it had stretched. My Plumafill jacket has held up well. Used and abused. I’ve read that initially they all lose some loft. I haven’t really noticed.

[Jerry Adams]

I have an uninformed opinion : )

I always loosely compress my synthetic vest on top of my pack.  I think tightly compressing will cause loft degradation over time

After years, it seemed like my vest had lost loft so I made a new one.

Maybe I just wanted one with 3.5 osy apex rather than 2.5 osy.

I seem to remember articles or threads about this with more scientific analysis

[Todd T]

‘Nother uninformed opinion:  It’s always seemed to me that it’s the stuffing, not how tightly it’s ‘squished,’ that does the most damage.  Most synthetic insulations are formed in a batt or blanket, the fibers held in particular positions to best stop air movement.  Stuffing risks pulling/tearing the batt, leaving cold spots and, over time, an overall less lofty bag/jacket/whatever.

I’d love to know whether that’s right or not.

[JCH]

I am uninformed at best, but…

Many years ago (15+?) I destroyed a 15 deg synthetic sleeping bag in less than 2 years by stuffing it. Turned into a 45 deg bag at best. No idea about modern synthetics, I only use down now. I’ve had the same down clothing, bags and quilts for 15+ years with no performance degradation.

[David D]

Stephen measured CLO loss of 6OSY Apex and Primaloft Gold with different compression forces and # cycles

https://backpackinglight.com/compression-resistance-primaloft-gold-vs-climashield-apex-part-4/

The amount of force didn’t affect Apex CLO loss rate but counter intuitively, lower force caused faster and more permanent degradation than higher force in Prima Gold (unless the graph is mislabeled?)

[Stephen Seeber]

David: I took a Quick Look. I don’t specifically know what you are referring to but I did see that the figure 7 graph is the r-value plot rather than the loft plot. Post any other questions.

[David D]

Stephen, thanks for weighing in.  Figure 6 shows that R value is degraded more by 23.4lbs of force than by 70.2 lbs.  The legend should be switched?

[Monte Masterson]

I appreciate the link, that’s good thorough testing on the Apex and Primaloft. I have an EE Apex 50* F quilt and it really doesn’t provide very much warmth for its weight IMO. My vest with Primaloft on the other hand performs well.

But I posed the question more for a loose-fill OR Superstrand LT Hoodie with proprietary Vertical X Superstrand insulation. Actually I just noticed in OR’s description it says: “if you overstuff one of these garments, it’s guaranteed to lose efficiency”. So I guess they for the most part answered my question. I just wonder how much to stuff the jacket. https://www.outdoorresearch.com/blogs/stories/introducing-verticalx-superstrand-the-best-down-alternative-for-four-season-warmth

[David D]

I have EE Apex quilts in 20deg and 30deg and both are notably lighter than any synthetic bag out there, but embarrassed in warmth/weight by down.

[Stephen Seeber]

Hi David D:  We are talking .1R difference at the end of the test in Figure 6.  That is a very small difference and not one I can claim to measure with that much precision with my guarded hot plate.  A better way to compare the R-value difference for the two types of insulation is the slope of the regression curve for each Apex and Primaloft. Primaloft is 1/3 the loss as Apex.  That is not to say that Apex is no good.  It just means the Primaloft product is a little more resilient. Even the slope may not give the best answer because the Apex loss seems to be flattened at the end of the test, so if I had gone to 50 tests, who knows how the comparison might have ended.  We can see from the figure 6 regression results (R squared),  and just the the general plot of the two lines, that the number of crushes explains less than 74% of the test variance.  There are other factors at work here that could account for the performance differences between the two samples, including small errors introduced by the testing process. The bottom line is that both show good resilience, and Primaloft is a little better.  If we want to know how they both fare in the long run, you must find someone more patient than me.

[David Hartley]

I have a 30 deg EE Apex Enigma quilt (long wide variant) that I have to stuff pretty aggressively into a trash compactor bag along with pad, sleeping clothes, extra socks, and my puffy, in order to fit into a GG Gorilla (the older 40 liter version). I probably have somewhere around 40 nights on it – with the 40 corresponding stuffing and unpacking cycles. I have not noticed significant degradation yet. Difficult to know for sure though – so many variables regarding what makes for a warm or cold night. I have had it down to 30 when I was in a tent, wearing a 60 gsm primaloft puffy, on an xlite pad, and I was warm enough, but on another trip where it also got down to 30 I was a bit chilled in an open shelter with the same puffy and a warmer (neoair all season) pad. The second trip was more recent – so was I cold due to degraded insulation? Or was it the open shelter? Maybe it was the humidity, or a slight breeze, or I didn’t eat enough. By the time I know for sure I will likely have purchased a newer quilt.

[David D]

A retailer recommended the 10L Hyperlight pod for the 20 degree EE Apex revelation.  They fit well in a Kakwa

When I asked EE, they said “don’t”, stick to their recommended maximum compression (12.5L)

But $100 is rich for a little bag

I pack the quilt down to ~ 15-20L instead in a Nylofume.  The pod is 1.7 oz, the bigger backpack to accommodate this is +5 oz so for 3.3 oz penalty the quilt lasts a lot longer, is much faster to pack in the morning, and I can use the same bigger backpack on winter day trips into the hills where a minimalist pack won’t cut it

[Terran Terran]

You can’t stuff a garment with too much insulation or it will weigh it down, and it won’t trap air the way it’s meant to.

Overstuff or overfill?

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