Hot tenting heat during the night – ideas?

[Juho V]

Hi!

We were out in the New Year’s Eve with my wife with a “hot tent” teepee style with a wood stove. But we were a bit miserable during the night in -25 C (-13 F) and it got me thinking how to be more comfy in a wood heated hot tent during the night.

My problem I try to solve is as follows: Use a hot tent that is spacious for cozy sitting by the wood stove and for the night find out a way to heat the tent safely to raise the sleeping temperature to plus celsius degrees (at least +5 C 41 F) if the weather outside is -20C. Our transporting equipment is snow shoes with both having ice fishing sled (XL size) to haul the gear for two nights in around 5km from the car without too much trouble. Our wood stove from Helsport burns 2 40litres sacks of birch so for two nights we need 4 or them which makes the other sled full. This means our rest of the equipment should be fitting to the other sled. Now we are using a polycotton teepee and the Helsport stove but these take up too much space. We would need to cut the space required for tent and stove to be about half of these. So there would be half space left in the other sled. So collapsible stove and a nylon teepee or some other hot tent is most likely required. Basically now we used 3 sleds full of gear and would need to cut it to 2 sleds.

Firstly, I think that a teepee style tent (or “kota” in Finnish or “lavvo” in Swedish) is made for the high winds and open fire inside. But it’s not originally invented to be used with a stove. With a stove the heat is mostly high up (normally needed for the smoke from the open fire). Secondly, when we go to bed the space is so big that our body temperature does not warm it at all and again most heat is up high.

So I was thinking that the shelter should be more of a Kifaru Sawtooth kind of shape where the sleeping area is not so tall but I think it should have a liner and a fabric wall separating the sleeping area from the rest of the shelter so that the body heat would not escape that much. So it also could be some kind of tunnel shape. But we need standing area around the stove. Again another idea would have a small two-person tent inside the teepee. And what if it would have an insulated outer fabric. I can see there are such tents available but could be fairly easily DIY’d with some insulation material (not necessarily expensive down though).

One other idea was to use a small propane heater inside for the night. But that makes me really worry about the safety. I even had ideas where you would use something like Mr. Buddy heater on low setting and use the stove fan on top of it AND use some kind of funnel and a pipe to get the warmth safely to the insulated tent inside the teepee. Heater would remain in the big space of the teepee surrounded by some fireproof cloth.

But these propane heaters require a lot of propane/butane and put up quite a bit of BTUs. Lowest I found was catalytic heater from Coleman called Sport Cat (discontinued). It put up only about 1000 BTUs which might be enough if funnelled somehow inside the insulated tent.

Had a thought also of diesel heaters and electric blankets but they require big batteries. These are well tested here in Finland for ice fishing basecamp trips for some people who come with snowmobiles. But this is not an option for us.

Any ideas or comments?

[Terran Terran]

There’s a Facebook group for Chinese diesel heaters. A good place to ask questions. I’m not sure how a big a battery you’d need. At least 20 amps, 13.5 volts. There’s a surge as the glow plug heats up, especially in colder weather. They are heat exchangers and you’ll have less condensation issues then with a Mr. Buddy. They can be piped in. Propane puts out about a third more heat than diesel, easier to carry.
I haven’t tried the insulated tents.

[Juho V]

Thanks Terran for the response. I was looking at the diesel heaters amperage draw and it was somewhere around 0,5A to 6A in an hour but that was just based on googling. So yeah with a smaller Jackery-style battery it could be somewhere to 1-2 nights. Something to study further for sure!

[Todd Stough]

Lonewolf 902 has videos on youtube using a pomoly hot tent.  It is a dome tent.  There is a large vestibule and then an inner tent for sleeping.  It seems to work really well for him.  Looks like half the tent is inner and half is vestibule.

 

I’m not sure keeping warm all night is possible.  Sleeping higher up might help be in the heat zone.

[Terran Terran]

I had diesel and propane backwards. Diesel is more energy intense.
“Diesel has a higher energy density than propane, producing 128,700 BTUs per gallon compared to 84,942 BTUs for propane” Google

Most of the amperage consumed is when the plug warms up. I was using a 12v 10amp adapter and it wouldn’t start when it got too cold. I replaced it with one with an adaptable voltage (12-13.5) and 30 amps. Most folks upgrade the fuel line. At least on the cheap heaters.
A cot would get you up into the heat zone more.
Always count on your heat to fail.

[Terran Terran]

A fast answer on fb.

”It will take 35-40 amp hours for two night running 8 hours on low to low-medium. If you are using lithium a 50AH battery will work otherwise 100AH”

[Juho V]

Thanks Todd will check the Lonewolf video!

Terran I also tried to check different sites and seems it is quite a lot… recommendation is 500Wh for one night. So it’s like 41Ah with 12V. Definitely would require 90Ah battery. I just replaced such a battery to my car and yeah was quite ok sized but definitely quite heavy. Do they mention is it 2kW or 5kW heater? Or does it matter?

Other suggestions I got was to use an ethanol space heater like Origo 5100 HeatPal or HeatMate 5200. It burns one litre pre night. Most likely stove fan would work on top of it.

[Todd Stough]

Do they make small Kerosene heaters?  I searched and this is the first thing that came up.  https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B8D67LWH?th=1

Using a sled you might be able to pull a can of kerosene without too much trouble.

 

I was also wondering if you could sew your own inner tent to sleep in, lower height might trap more body heat while you’re sleeping.

[Terran Terran]

I asked about a 2 kw, but I don’t think there’s a lot of difference as far as power consumed. A lithium battery will maintain high voltage until it’s about 80% or so discharged so you can get away with fewer amp hours and a smaller battery. A 50ah lipo4 weighs about 15 pounds. Still with fuel and all, you’re probably looking at 35-40 pounds.
Ethanol can raise condensation. Anything without exhaust, but I’ve never tried them. That’s why a wood stove is good.

[Todd Stough]

Terran that little Kero heater I showed is looking better.  It is 2.6kw, uses .25L per hour.  10 liters would burn for 40 hours and stove and fuel is about 25 pounds.  It would also be cheap $69 and it looks like it can double as a stove for cooking.  It uses a cloth wick so it should be durable enough.

 

Be curious how one of those diesel heaters would do in my garage.

[Juho V]

Diesel heaters starts to be a bit too complicated. That type of lithium battery is something like 400€ and I would hesitate using it in -25C or so… even if I tried to warm it might get damaged in such low temps?

That kerosene heater looks great. I think I once in Japan slept quite well next to a kerosene heater based on the smell. It was a small hostel room. Still a flame is a flame. Might make me sleep with one eye open… ethanol heater would be simpler and lighter. Those my friends have used often over the night in a teepee.

[Terran Terran]

I use the diesel for truck camping. 5kw is good for about 200 sq.’

crisco heater

[Jerry Adams]

if you’re concerned with weight, then the heat of combustion is important – how much heat you can get from a given weight of the fuel.  From engineering toolbox:

propane, butane – 50 MJ.kg

paraffin wax, kerosene – 46

diesel – 45

isopropyl alcohol – 33

ethanol – 30

methanol – 23

So, if you use alcohol, you have to take about 50% more weight

I’ve tried kerosene in white gas stove.  That stuff is smelly.  Never again.

Paraffin, butane, and propane all have a better heat of combustion without being smelly

[Juho V]

Will have a look at the video!

Thanks for the energy comparison Jerry! Maybe more than weight for this kind of trip I’m mostly concerned of weight. Diesel heater outside the tent would be the safest I think. Maybe catalytic heater the next.

[Jerry Adams]

I went into someone’s RV that had a catalytic heater.  It produces a lot of water vapor.  That condensed all over the walls.  Mold.  Disgusting.

Not that it isn’t possible to make this work better.

Wax seems like a good choice.  Like, you could have candle(s).  No liquid to spill.  Works at low temps.  No stove or container weight.  But they are sooty.

[Juho V]

I was also thinking of candles. Wow UCO candlerier is said to put “up to 5000BTUs” and burn from 9-12h depending on the candle type. I could test this out tomorrow night in a tent. It’s going to be -20C.

[Terran Terran]

Beeswax is said to be hotter. Soy or palm oil wax has less soot.

[Juho V]

Tested first the concept of insulated tent and I think it was better than I expected. Pitched my Portal 2 at the living room and threw all my cheap sleeping bags on top of it. After 20min inside the tent with my wife watching Finland lose a hockey match the temperature inside the tent was 8 degrees Celsius warmer than outside the tent. Living room temp 19.5C (67,1F) and inside the tent 27.5C (81.5F). It could have been even more but it was getting a bit too warm so we got out.

[David Thomas]

Jerry’s right that propane (and butane) have more heat content per weight.  And Terran is right that diesel has more energy per volume (i.e. per gallon) but propane is less dense.

More important than either of those comparison though is that a pound of propane is contained in a pound of steel, while diesel, kerosene, white gas and wax can be transported in much lighter containers.

Except for, you know, killing you from CO poisoning, unvented charcoal is great.  Not fabulous BTU/pound (70% that of the hydrocarbons) but essentially no container weight and quite minimum stove weight (a cheap SS bowl).  And it produces no water vapor.  Too bad it can kill you.

I’d either:

1) use a catalytic propane heater and accept some condensation if the tent is tightly sealed.  I’d start there, regardless, because it doesn’t get any easier and you’ll learn how many BTU/hour you need in different conditions.  Refill 1-pound containers from 20-pound BBQ tanks and the fuel cost is minimal.  or

2) a wood stove with a flue to outside.  Does it have to be collapsable if you’re using sleds?  You can fill the fire box with firewood on the trip in, so a converted small drum, ammo or jerry can would be fine.  Learn how often it needs to be stoked, set an alarm every XX minutes on a phone to one person’s earbud, and then, at 3 am, hand off stove duty to your companion.  If gathering firewood is a fun activity during the trip, you need only to bring in some great kindling and a few very dry pieces of very good wood (I saw up oak pallets and busted hardwood furniture I snag at the dump).  You’ll learn that certain combos of new kindling, 1-2 pieces of dry wood but the rest unsplit frozen birch lasts much longer between refills.  And bring a leather glove.  Daintily push burning wood around with another stick is asking for a mishap.  Just wear a leather glove and grab the wood directly when filling or adjusting the wood in the stove.   At home or while motoring boating, I use an $8 pair of double-layer leather welder’s gloves.  On the trail, I’d use a single-layer leather glove that covered my wrist and use it for shorter periods.

If you’re sledding in, self-light charcoal briquettes are tinder, kindling and fuel all in one.  And really nice for rebuilding the fire at 3 am if you slept too long.

[Roger Caffin]

WARNING!
1) use a catalytic propane heater and accept some condensation if the tent is tightly sealed.
If the tent is tightly sealed and if ALL the exhaust fumes are not piped outside the tent, you will likely die of CO poisoning. It happens all the time to novice campers.
Why?
Because IF the tent is tightly sealed, oxygen levels will fall and there will be incomplete combustion. This makes CO, which builds up. It is odourless, and you won’t notice.

Catalytic heaters always make a bit of CO anyhow. You might note that they are sold as OUTDOOR heaters, not for indoors use.

Cheers

[Kevin Babione]

Growing up we had a Coleman radiant heater that used white gas – one tank would last the night and kept Mom from complaining as the five of us slept in our 100 lb canvas cabin tent.  I had to laugh when I Googled it because I learned that it’s now “vintage” since Coleman no longer makes it.  Does that make me vintage too?

Anyway, if you need to sled all of your fuel in, then propane seems to make the most sense – probably in conjunction with some changes to your shelter.  Here’s what may be a stupid question:  In your teepee style tent, you’re losing a lot of heat in the top portion while you’re sleeping.  Could you simply cut a temporary ceiling for your teepee that you would put into place when you go to sleep (using velcro to secure it)?  It seems like a very light option – certainly lighter than a separate structure inside your teepee.  I can’t recommend a height, but obviously lower (but bigger diameter) is better for heat retention.  When you wake up you could then simply remove the velcro from 70% of it and let it hang off the to side.  Just an armchair winter-camper’s thought…

[AK Granola]

Friends here in Alaska use Arctic Oven tents and love them; I haven’t tried one. They’re pretty heavy though, even for pulling on a sled, although 5 km is pretty short. You can and probably should purchase a small portable CO2 monitor to be safe regardless of your heating mechanism; they’re tiny these days. Why get crippled or dead when camping? Camper Christina has some nice YouTube videos showing her homemade hot tents. I’ll stick to rental cabins in winter! I’ve done enough shivering for one lifetime. I hope you find the right solution!

[Juho V]

Kevin there is already such idea utilized in Helspot Finnmark teepee where you can lower the inner tent for the night! Brilliant idea.

I will use a CO2 alarm and the teepee is well vented. But are seriously you saying 3 candles is enough to kill you with CO2 if you are not cautious?

Having stove on for the whole night is an option but I wanted not to do it. I have too many bad scenarios in my head what could happen.

Mr Buddy or Catalytic heater could be an option but I think after testing the insulated 2 man tent and seeing how effective it can be I feel like few candles could be enough to cut the worst chill. I have even seen stove fans been used on top of the Uco Candlelier.

Alaskan Oven would be great! Not having all the heat high up as in the teepee. Still would require stove running through the night.

By the way some Sami people use multifuel piped stove inside the teepee running the whole night. You can even use wood. These are very expensive:

https://arcticlavvo.no/products/volcano-multifuel-teltovn

[Terran Terran]

https://www.solowilder.com/IgniFire-Portable-Pellet-Stove-%7C-Mini-3-Sided-Glass-Camping-Pellet-Stove-%7C-SoloWilder-2023-New-Arrival-p23973821.html

[David Thomas]

There are a range of safety features on propane-powered catalytic heaters.  Some are just a “burner” head that attach directly to a 1-pound cylinder.  The “Buddy” and “Mr Heater” units have tip-over shut-offs and some have low-oxygen shut-offs.

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