Heater and shelter for a climbing route

[Timothy Hogan]

I am a Via Ferrata guide near Zion N Park.

I am looking for a fairly light butane or isobutane canister heater that will provide a few hours of heat, and (a fairly light) floorless shelter to contain some of the heat. I just bought off Amazon the Kovea Cupid butane heater. The connector for the butane canister is, I think, very poorly designed, magnetic without a positive lock…and dangerous. I haven’t started it and won’t as the risk is too great (I might if I had my structural firefighter gear from my last job). Wildland fire risks are significant here so a small woodstove is not a good option.

I do carry a few pieces of extra clothing, contractor bags for diy raincoats, disposable “hot hands”hand warmers, a small iso canister stove/pot/cups/cocoa/snacks/cocoa/water & will continue to do so-I think something more though is needed.

A little background: The route is remote, about 2 miles in length (half of this on cable) and at 6400-6800 feet. Typically I guide 1-12 guests at a time, many of which have never climbed before, some with little to no gear. I average 5-7 trips a week June to October. I finished my second season a month ago. There is a risk that if there is a significant medical emergency, we may need be stuck a few hours till rescue arrives.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Peace, Tim Hogan/9-fingers

[Timothy Hogan]

Cannot get photo to load..sorry. Operating from my smartphone

[Roger Caffin]

I doubt that a Kovea Cupid heater could keep 12 people warm. I suggest that a far better solution would be to insist that all clients MUST carry adequate clothing. If they don’t have the gear, perhaps they could rent it for the trip. If they won’t, then they should not be there.

I realise that this might mean a few people might claim that is too hard or too expensive, and that could impact your earnings in the short term. But really, do you want such people as your responsibility? People that silly are a hazard to everyone else. In the long run, I suggest you might be better off without them.

BTW: if you are planning on running any heater or stove inside a closed or even semi-closed shelter, be aware that the occupants (including you) may well succumb to carbon monoxide poisoning within 10 – 15 minutes. This may affect your liability insurance.

Cheers

[Bill Budney]

Cannot get photo to load..sorry.

The BPL photo gizmo uploads a picture from your device to BPL’s server(s). The appearance that it will accept a web link is misleading.

Most canister heaters are a compromise: heavy or safety hazards or both. There are some light-ish heaters that auto-shutoff if tipped over, but I’m not sure that guarantees safety. None are designed to use inside of a tent or bothy. For that you would really want a hot tent with a chimney, which typically have wood stoves for much greater energy than you are likely to want to carry.

As Roger points out, you don’t get a lot of BTUs out of a canister heater. No more than a canister stove, for that matter.

So one solution would be a canister stove with a pot of water on top. That would provide a small amount of heat and also some hot drinks which might be welcome. Bonus: No extra carried weight.

There are metal “heater tops” for butane stoves. They are just hunks of ventilated metal that provide heat capacity and a chimney to warm the air inside your shelter. I’ve seen videos demonstrating that they “work”, although I’m not persuaded that they would work any better than a pot of water. You’d have to test one to be sure of any performance difference.

PS: I would think that your clients would appreciate your coaching (and or outfitting) of proper clothing, as well.

[Timothy Hogan]

Thanks..both of you. I greatly appreciate it. I had I feeling I would hear from Roger, lol…and honestly I was hoping I would. I have been on a lot of CO emergencies over my career and don’t operate a stove or any other gas appliance in an enclosed space without some ventilation and I always have a CO monitor and propane gas detector in the space. I strongly suspect that you, Roger have done similar testing of your stoves before using them. Sadly there are far too many gas appliances imported here, including backpacking stoves that produce significant amounts of CO.

I am responsible for the safety of these people of course and despite providing them a list of recommended gear to bring it is very common for them to bring little to nothing. This usually doesn’t happen end up being a big deal because our Utah weather is mild. At nightfall or later though, it of course can get pretty cold..like anywhere at altitude. It isn’t much of a problem for me to carry some extras.
A potentially dangerous heater that is fairly heavy and likely doesn’t provide all that many BTUs, ok..I get that. I will stick with hand warmers, contractor bags and cocoa.

[Bill Budney]

Makes sense.

Don’t some guides develop a small outfitting sideline business to deal with clients who have more money than time (or sense) to arrive properly equipped? It is not for everyone, of course, but some might appreciate it.

Or maybe you could arrange a discount at a local shop for your clients? You might even get a finders fee for yourself.

Possibly a few loaner Apex poncho-blankets might work for others?

Just brainstorming here. :)

[Timothy Hogan]

<p style=”text-align: left;”>Good thinking and I really don’t want to bother with a side business, lol. I do think the poncho and liner is a  great idea though, and I have quite a few small backpacks that I loan out to guests and having a few spare ponchos and liners would be a big improvement over my contractor bags. Spreading some of the weight to guests would be nice. There are no local shops I can do business with at this time..that will change as our area grows up and gets busier though. I haven’t used a poncho in a long time and I appreciate the ventilation and ability to make it into an impromptu shelter. Hmmm, Apex I will have to look into..do you think a cord/strap are needed in the wind to prevent billowing and to keep it from being too bulky on a sometimes narrow path/climbing route?</p>

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Tim

Yeah, a lot of testing.
https://backpackinglight.com/stoves_tents_carbon_monoxide/ and 5 more parts covering stoves of all fuels.

As for the amount of CO released by different stoves, a generalisation I make is that canisters stoves themselves are generally not too bad (the Reactor is an extremely bad exception), while others, like white gas stoves, are much worse.

But possibly more significant is the distance between the burner head and the pot base. Mfrs always make this distance too small, aiming for bragging rights over boil times. And heat exchanger pots are even worse. What happens is that the cold pot base chills the flames before combustion has finished if too close, so that vast amounts of CO do not get burnt. Flame chemistry is complex. (‘Cold’: the gas flame is up around 1,000 C, so anything under 100 C is cold in comparison.)

Poncho straps: my ponchos (blue) don’t need them, but commercial ones (brown) might.

Cheers

[Bill Budney]

Apex comes in sheets so it’s much easier to work with than, say, down. RipstopByTheRoll has some good FAQs about it, and there are several MYOG threads in this forum about projects.

A cord or belt can be good in high winds. It doesn’t have to be fancy — a cord tied in a bow, like a bathrobe, is enough for occasional use.

[Timothy Hogan]

(For Roger) Haha, yes, engineers have a need to experiment/test/improvise to really be happy, lol. That’s partly why we send our seemingly impossible problems your way. Definitely a good reason to be a BPL member. FYI I do have a Caffin V6 I believe, your last before the latest variant. I may have to get the latest one to keep up with the cool crowd 😎. I don’t need the cold weather benefits atm and I really do appreciate the base that is more stable.

I’m sure you have played 🤣 er I mean experimented with butane stoves.. is there one you can recommend for up to 2500 meters in elevation and 4 degrees Celsius at the low end and averaging 16-27? I have several (dozens of cartridges) cases of Chinese butane 227 gram cartridges and I don’t fancy mixing/redulling isobutane cartridges. I am fine with an adapter although I don’t trust anything Korean especially off Amazon. Ideally I’d like a remote canister stove for isobutane or butane cartridges that is backpackable and has the control valve near the tank. Peace ✌️

[Timothy Hogan]

Thanks Bill for your reply. I prefer to order something off Amazon as I am going to need 10-16 of them. It would be especially nice to get a poncho and woobie that play nice together and don’t break the bank…this is coming out of my pocket lol. Curious if the frog toggs poncho will work..seldom going to be used, mostly carried. Did I mention that Utah typically has awesome weather lol 🤣

[David D]

I use a shock cord and toggle as a belt for my poncho. Works well and the give of the shock cord is helpful in this application

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Tim

I have actually managed to modify the black connector I use on my stoves to fit onto a butane cartridge, but I did that mainly out of curiosity. I don’t want to sell it as it has two tiny parts which can get lost, especially in an emergency. You know?

Instead, if you have lots of butane cans, I would suggest what we often call a ‘wok stove’. The image below shows a Coleman one, but there are plenty of brands. They are flat and stable, they take the butane cans, and they are CHEAP (<US$30 at Amazon, less on ebay). OK, not so light – typically about 1/2 lb, but stable!

HTH
Cheers

[Timothy Hogan]

Cheap and heavy I can do, lol thanks 🙏

[Bill Budney]

I prefer to order something off Amazon … poncho and woobie … Curious if the frog toggs poncho will work..seldom going to be used, mostly carried.

Might be hard to fit all criteria simultaneously, but here are some thoughts:

The reason that I suggested MYOG is that the ponchos you can buy with matching liners tend to be heavy-ish (military surplus) and not especially warm (although they can be inexpensive if you get a good price — check eBay, as well as Amazon). Snugpak makes higher-end ponchos and matching liners with sleeves that are warmer than the usual US military poncho+woobie (but they are more expensive). Thermarest, Hill People Gear, and Jervenduken make similarly high-end products.

Frogg Toggs are fine if all you want is a poncho. They will work as a tarp in little or no wind, but are not very strong. For occasional/emergency use, I prefer the Frogg Toggs Emergency Poncho (Walmart or Amazon) — they weigh half as much as the regular FT ponchos, and are even cheaper. They are not at all durable, but that’s what your tape, trash bags, and group shelters are for.

However, with FT ponchos, then you will be back to making MYOG liners. Apex is easy to sew and can be warm (it’s available in thicknesses from half an inch up to two inches or more per layer). If you just want a small amount of summertime insulation, then fleece (or Alpha Direct) is even easier: Just cut it to shape and attach with KamSnaps.

The seamstress at the dry cleaners (or any person who sews) may be able to help with making liners.

If you don’t need the “liners” to match the ponchos, then any lightweight blanket will do. Costco sometimes carries their famous down “throw” which is a popular small/light/cheap blanket (not currently available as I write this). One step up from a blanket is to cut a head slot in it (you may need to re-finish the edges).

If you want to be slightly more fancy than a blanket, then there are many wearable blankets with synthetic insulation on Amazon and AliExpress. AegisMax makes a nice wearable down quilt with 2″ loft if you want a high-end version for yourself.

PS: Zion is one of my favorite parks. Awesome place to live. What’s that cute little town just south of the park where I got bumble berry pie?

[Timothy Hogan]

Wow..ton of GREAT info, Bill! Thanks 🙏 I was a Navy Corpsman quite a bit ago- not unlike an Army medic. I loved the poncho I was issued when I was out working with Marines…very welcome on the cold wet miserable days in the pac NW. Without that life would have been much worse. It also stopped the worst leaks in the cotton canvas pup tents we slept in back then. Adding a surplus poncho liner took it to almost comfortable. I have been seriously considering a Hill People Gear Mountain Serape or Kifaru woo or/doobie for me on cold mornings/evenings around the cabin. Not lightweight really/versatile for sure.
Costco used to sell quilted down blankets for around $20 that many of our boy scouts used..cheap, fairly light, nice to boost a cold bag & for camp wear. I think a small fleece Walmart throw would work great..and adding snaps. Ok on the frog toggs emergency ponchos..that is where I’m going to start,then I will upgrade to better ponchos if I need to.

Really got me rethinking the equipment I take guiding. I am going to have guests bring ponchos and liners..one for each of them, and the group cartridge stove/teapot/water/snacks & group tarp…adding daypacks if needed and at least some of the group medical equipment I carry. That will help to lighten my load which is going to include a handheld radio and accessories next season. I will need to upsize the 20’liter pack I have used, lol. I started with about 10 pounds including the pack and that has creeped up to 30 plus pounds, probably close to 40.

Peace and you and Roger have earned a free guided VF trip, lol…seriously if in Utah give me a shout out. 425-367-9111. This place is amazing and I love to show it off. I can and do guide free trips pretty consistently.

think the town might be Rockville or Virgin…Springdale is the touristy town right at the park entrance

[Bill Budney]

If we think of the “liner” as a separate item than the poncho — just an insulated layer, not necessarily attached to the poncho — then you have many choices.

I should have said (but you already know) that the military poncho+woobie is the most versatile combination. If you want a poncho tough enough to use as a tarp or bivy or even a stretcher, then that’s the thing. It’s a legitimate (small) tarp with a built-in hood. IIRC, the marine version even has a zipper on the edge for using it as a bivy/sleeping bag. I’ve wondered whether two could be zipped together to make a larger (and more versatile) tarp?

Kifaru doesn’t give us any specs about their Woobie/Doobie, but maybe they’re OK? It’s an expensive experiment based on zero information. OTOH, they do have a reputation for making good gear, so who knows? You could make an Apex version for $50.

Wiggy’s also makes military-adjacent tough gear made for cold weather (they are in Alaska and do military contract work).

The AegisMax Wind Hard Tiny Pro that I linked above is certainly the ultralight version of wearable (down) quilts. The fabric is 10D, so it is nowhere near as tough as the military/hunting gear, but it is much lighter. The included straps are short for wrapping around a sleeping pad, so you might have to rig a better pad strap. But the warmth:weight ratio is the best I’ve found (with a zippered head hole and collar).

If you’re still there in a couple of years, I may very well look you up!

(I was thinking of Springdale. It only had a single store/restaurant when I was there, but that was a long time ago.) :)

[Bill Budney]

Onewind is another company worth looking at. They make some interesting ponchos and synthetic wearable quilts. Their extended-length poncho is usable as a shelter AND has sleeves — it’s the only poncho I am aware of with both features. It’s also competitively priced for something like that.

[Richard Nisley]

The Kovea Fire Ball only weighs 1.25 lbs.

By inverting the iso-butane canister, the Kovea can burn the fuel inside the canister in its liquid form down to about 0 degrees Fahrenheit, giving you a 10-15 degree advantage over regular canister stoves that can only burn isobutane in its vapor form. If there’s a down side to running the Kovea Spider in inverted canister mode, it’s that the flow of fuel becomes a little harder to control and more like a regular liquid fuel (white gas) stove. For example, when you turn off the fuel valve, the fuel in the line has to burn off completely before the flame goes out. The same holds during ignition, when you can experience a bit of a fireball when lighting the stove in liquid fuel mode so light it in vapor mode before inverting the canister

The Kovea Fire Ball has an integrated piezo lighter, like many regular canister stoves. While the peizo works great in warmer temperatures when burning your fuel as vapor, it stops working in cold temperatures (which piezos are known to do) when you’re likely to use the stove in inverted canister mode. For colder weather, you’ll want to bring an ignition source that will throw a spark or flame.

Kovea also sells a propane (LPG) adapter that would let you use this stove with a propane canister. Propane can burn down to 40 below.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Tim

a free guided VF trip,
Thank you very kindly. However, I live in Australia, so it is not very likely.
We (Sue & I) have done some things like that in Europe year ago.

Dolomites.

Cheers

[Bill Budney]

Richard! It is excellent to hear from you. That sounds like an interesting heater.

I see that you have discussed the Kovea Fireball in the past, including the heater’s advantage of being able to aim the radiant heat rather than the vertical heat from a pot of water. Later, you explain how the circular pattern of a stove-top heater (BRS-24) might be better for a group sitting in a circle. You even mentioned somewhere that the BRS-24 radiates more heat sideways than vertically, which suggests that it IS superior to my hypothetical pot of water.

Timothy: That thread has a lot of great information about tent heaters, CO (and lightweight monitors/detectors, as well as how to test), heater tops (BRS-24), and other questions from this thread.

[Roger Caffin]

May I utter a word of caution about all those infra-red heaters. The glowing from the mesh usually means the flames are hitting the mesh before combustion has completed. This means that there could be significant amounts of CO being emitted. Toxic stuff.

Yeah, I may be a bit paranoid – so?

Cheers

[Bill Budney]

Yes. CO is well-discussed, including by you, Roger, in that thread that I linked. :)

Also David Thomas and Richard… lots of heavy-hitters there.

But, yeah, CO scares me more than ticks. One thing that is rarely mentioned is that CO makes your red blood cells temporarily unable to carry oxygen, and it takes several hours for the CO to clear out of your system. If you can’t hold your breath for several hours, then that could be a problem. Attempts to resuscitate (even with pure oxygen) may be inadequate.

It’s worth repeating the warnings.

[Timothy Hogan]

Yeah I’m hyper-aware of CO poisoning. I’ve been on emergencies where it killed people. Automobile exhaust and charcoal briquettes are big producers and even a standard wood burning stove  can put out a lot of CO at times. I have used a Mr. Buddy propane heater quite a bit and keep a CO and propane detector in the case with it, on top-so I’m more likely to use them early…and have a leather glove, an outside door/window close to toss the appliance out and a pressurized water fire extinguisher..lol….you’ll probably never see this retired veteran firefighter quit wanting to being in the fight. Thanks Richard and again thanks Bill/Roger and everyone else. I’m on a better “path” now pun intended. Peace

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Tim

Yeah, I figured you would know about CO – but what about all the newcomers to the game who might be reading this?
So, I post warnings.

Cheers

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