Grand Canyon Rim-Rim Water-Electrolytes

[Brad W]

@Jerry Yes! The longer the wait in the lobby, the higher my BP will be.

I have read that for every liter of water sweated out, on average approximately 900mg of sodium is excreted. It would be great if that were easy to measure ones output easily. Other than wearing a rubber sweat suit and collecting the sweat somehow I am not sure how you would do that. But you could really dial in ones electrolytes requirements with that that information.

[Jerry Adams]

The gear skeptic went into that:

He has a spreadsheet to calculate how much sodium and potassium to supplement for different conditions.  For one condition he calculates you need 2000 mg each of sodium and potassium – 1.5 teaspoons  of “lite” salt.

He says if you don’t get enough your fingers will swell.  That’s an easy way to tell.  (Which is confusing because if you have swollen legs, you should consume less salt).

I want one of those Dune suits :)

[Bill Budney]

Yes. Gear Skeptic also misses the point slightly on magnesium and calcium. It is true that they are both electrolytes, and we do sweat out small amounts of them, but sweat replacement isn’t the way we should think about them.

In the case of magnesium, most North Americans are straight up deficient (due to soil depletion) and need much larger amounts than we lose to sweat.

Most reasonable discussions of calcium recommend getting it from food (dairy or bones such as in canned small fish) rather than from supplements. As usual for medicine, the method of action is unclear, but supplemental calcium is more likely to wind up in places where we don’t want it, rather than in places where we do. Food sources do better in the studies.

The bottom line is that we only need to replace sodium and potassium from sweat, which is why Jerry’s suggestion of Lite Salt (50% NaCl and 50% KCl) is solid. We need more of both, and will get both from almost any foods, so there is ZERO need for pricey electrolyte mixes.

As some have said, they just eat salty snacks and do fine, which is also solid advice for most people, because potassium is ubiquitous in almost anything you eat. You almost certainly eat far more potassium than you would ever sweat out.

The time when you want sodium and potassium in your electrolyte mix is when you sweat for several hours without eating.

 

[Brad W]

@Bill, some good points. As I mentioned previously, I don’t fully believe in the finger swelling test. One can walk for 30 minutes in warm weather, sweat very little to not at all and have their finger swell-does this mean they are lacking in electrolytes? Likely not.

I tried the DIY route making electrolytes using a couple recipes online. Man were they hard to drink. Just tasted really bad in my opinion.  Maybe I could add some to empty gelatin capsules?

I personally don’t eat while hiking so I could see how I could sweat out a decent amount of salt over a day before I got to camp and ate.

[Bill Budney]

You can add flavorings, sure. Gelatin is nutritious (good for your connective tissue), but it’s a little thick. It’s good if you like it. I add it to bullion to make “trail bone broth”. Add jerky to make a meal out of it.

Gatorade Zero is fine if you don’t mind artificial sweeteners. Or ketone salts, if you’re into that sort of thing.

But, really, if it tastes bad then it is probably too strong. A quarter to a half teaspoon of Lite Salt per liter is all you need.

[Brad W]

Those ketone salts look interesting.  I really like the Gatorade Zero Lime flavor. They have them in tablets now that make it convenient. The dissolve pretty quickly.

I probably did make it too strong. Going to give the lite salt another try.

[Jerry Adams]

Salt tablets with 50% sodium and 50% potassium would work.  The gear skeptic recommended a product.  I just happen to have some “lite” salt.

If it’s not super hot, I’ll drink 2 or 3 pints of water during the day.  So, to get 1.5 teaspoons of lite salt, I’ll put 1/2 teaspoon in each pint.  It’s fairly salty, but not difficult to drink or anything.  Doesn’t cause any stomach pain or anything.

It seems like if you put the salt in your drinking water then you’ll naturally consume salt as you deplete it by sweating.

You don’t eat during the day Brad?  It seems to me that if I don’t eat anything I’ll bonk.  Very tired.  But maybe it’s just lack of water or salt that makes me bonk.

[jscott]

Lunch: carried in my front pouch along with my steripen, etc:

salted nuts  (which are themselves high in potassium); a few pieces of dried fruit; maybe jerky, but rarely; some kind of Powerbar. I assume the salts on the nuts and from the super salty freeze dried dinner the night before are sufficient. But if I know the temps will be high, yes, I bring accredited electrolyte  supplements in pill form.

[Brad W]

@Jerry For 99% of my hikes I do not. Eating while hiking just never sat well with me. I have been hiking fasted since I went to low carb high fat diet in 2017. It took me to build up my endurance fasted but it works well for me. I feel lighter and just generally better.  I have bonked very hard during this journey and it is miserable! I learned where that bonk threshold is and have avoided it for the most part.

 

Exceptions are if I am doing significant elevation gain at a face pace for long distances. I will eat small amount every 2-3 hours.

[Martin Van Laarhoven]

Eating while hiking can be a very personal choice but building endurance while fasted is impressive, and knowing your bonk threshold helps you manage your energy levels effectively.

Personally, I won’t try it because I know my body, but you do you

[Brad W]

@ Martin I for sure wouldn’t recommend that for anyone that hasn’t adapted to a low carb diet for some time, and even then, unless they like experimenting, it’s not super fun at first.  I find an empty stomach just works for me and is quite freeing. This is where dialing in electrolytes are important as I am not ingesting any salt except for what I add to my water.

[Bill Budney]

I find an empty stomach just works for me and is quite freeing. This is where dialing in electrolytes are important as I am not ingesting any salt except for what I add to my water.

I do the same. That’s what prompted me to try the ketone salts as electrolytes. Shrug… I don’t notice any change in performance vs Lite Salt.

However, hiking fasted does, on average, feel faster and stronger.

[Brad W]

@Bill, picked up some Lite Salt yesterday. Going to bring some in an small container and supplement my existing Gatorade Zero packets and Fizz Tablets from Hammer Nutrition.  Thanks for the tip.

[Bill Budney]

Happy to help (but it was Jerry’s tip more than mine).

[Jerry Adams]

I’ve been using about 2000 mg each of sodium and potassium when doing day long backpack when it’s warm, like 80 F.

I used to occasionally get really tired, but maybe taking the sodium/potassium has fixed that.  And I think I used to regularly get a little tired but with the electrolytes I think I feel better.  I’ve done a couple trips with more miles than before and feel less tired.

I’ve just been taking Morton lite salt and a 1/2 teaspoon.  You need 1.5 teaspoons to get 2000 mg each.  I put 1/2 teaspoon in a pint of water.  Do that again later in the day.  I normally eat some cookies I made during the day, so I put and extra 1/2 teaspoon in 6 cookies.  There’s 2000 mg each Na and K.

It’s a little inconvenient to have a plastic bag with salt and a 1/4 teaspoon.

Nuun has envelopes that are 300 mg Na, 150 mg K.  If I use 4 envelopes, that will give 1200 mg Na, which is what I want during the day, but only 600 mg K.  Maybe that doesn’t matter that the K is half as much.  4 envelopes are $6 on Amazon.

Amazon Basics electrolyte has tabs that are 240 mg Na, and 180 mg K.  5 tabs are 1200 mg Na and 900 mg K.  Not quite the goal, but probably close enough.  $3.75 for 5 tabs.

I can afford $3.75 or $6 per day, but being a child of people that survived the great depression, I’d rather pay for Morton lite salt $0.27 for a teaspoon.

It’s a bit inconvenient to spoon salt into my water bottle, so I tried mixing 3 teaspoons with water, forming into balls, and drying.

 

Those are irregular shaped, but they seem to be holding their shape and not falling apart. even if I drop them.  I need to make a little mold to make them more regular.

[Bill Budney]

If you want to get fancy, Jerry, you can fill your own capsules. It’s pretty easy — the tray holds the capsules so that they are easy to fill, then you push the tops onto the capsules to finish. You can process a tray in a few minutes.

The only thing to be careful about is to match your tray with your capsules.

Size 000 caps hold about a gram, 00 ~750mg, and 0 holds about half a gram.

You can open the capsule and pour it into your water bottle when ready, then reuse the capsule if you like. Empty capsules are not strong, so don’t crush them or get them wet.

 

 

[AK Granola]

Wow Jerry, I get the frugal upbringing part – when I was growing up we didn’t have a clothes dryer, dishwasher or second car. We made all of our food and almost never went out. etc.

But really, making your own electrolytes looks like a whole lot of work over the small cost of say a Hammer Fizz tablet and a bag of chips, especially compared to the cost of a new backpack or getting to the trailhead. All of you guys with your self nutrition experiments – guinea pigs galore! How did the hunter gatherers ever make it, especially without Fritos. (just having some fun here, I don’t really criticize anyone else’s diet!)

[Jerry Adams]

Same here – the dryer was a rack, no dishwasher, one car, didn’t go out to eat,…

Yeah, making own electrolyte is more work than justified.  There is a bit of humor here.

Putting salt in a bag with measuring spoon is pretty easy.

Any of those electrolyte products would probably work

The main thing is that some electrolytes in warm weather are helpful.

Another possibility would be to put it in a straw.

 

[jscott]

No-salt is super high in Potassium–certainly higher than any supplements. If you look at the label on  low sodium V8 juice is has 850 milligrams of potassium per serving due using to using potassium chloride in place of  salt. No-salt is mostly potassium chloride. So that’s an  effective option for  your electrolyte arsenal.

[Jerry Adams]

according to the calculation by gear skeptic, you want about 50% sodium chloride, 50% potassium chloride

electrolytes that you can buy like salt stick or nuun have more sodium chloride and less potassium chloride

Does it matter?  Probably not that much. “They” say that you get a lot of potassium from food so you don’t need it in your electrolyte.  When I’m backpacking I don’t eat so much potassium food like bananas, potatoes, avacados,… because they weigh too much.

salty snacks probably work about as good as anything

[jscott]

“When I’m backpacking I don’t eat so much potassium food like bananas, potatoes, avacados,… because they weigh too much.”

Yes. And on the other hands, bringing salty nuts for lunch, and certainly mass produced freeze dried meals, brings a ton of salt into our system. Or lightweight snacks like pretzle bits or what have you. salt is easy out on the trail, whereas Potassium goes missing. Maybe magnesium as well.

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