Grand Canyon Rim-Rim Water-Electrolytes

[Nick Gatel]

Craig Wisner and I did this hike plus more in 2010. We did a 65 mile loop over 3 days over Memorial Day weekend. Craig is young enough to be my son and I was 60 years old. He had been running marathons and ultra-marathons and was in fabulous shape. Plus he knows how to stay properly hydrated.

The first day we left around dawn and it was still dark. It was a 10,500 elevation gain. Got warm in the afternoon, but we were up at 8,000+ feet. I had to work hard to keep up with him and he, at times, slowed down so we could stay together.

The next day we hiked down to 7,000 feet a ~ 25 mile section to Cedar Spring. Lots of snow for a good part of this section.

The last day we descended to the desert floor. Craig led the way because he was a faster hiker — until the temp hit 100°F. I took the lead because I could walk faster. When it hit 106°F I had to slow down so as not to get too far ahead.

Point being, there is a huge difference for those who are not acclimated to this kind of weather and those who are, even with a close to 30 year age gap. Craig and I have done other desert trips together. At first he was surprised how much less water I need than he does. Not only is it acclimation but also physiology. Craig is husky and works out with weights. I am a skinny rail and my only exercise is walking.

So . . . know your body before tackling something like this. Knowing your body often requires short trips with ample water to get a feel for how you fare. And, always, always bring extra water just in case. Knowing what kind of foods/electrolytes/salt you require is the other half of the equation to stay safe.

 

[Terran Terran]

I was born in Yuma in the middle of the summer. Never thought about acclimation, but I guess it does happen.

Heat Acclimation

[Nick Gatel]

Definitely does happen. I could barely breathe in 115° F the first summer I was here. Hear the same thing from people who relocated to the desert, especially those who work outside in summer.

[Terran Terran]

I was veneering seawalls on Balboa Island when I moved back to Palm Desert in the mid 80’s. There was a housing boom with a lot of guys coming out. Many were using a “performance enhancer”. They were dropping like flies. I stopped drinking alcohol. It seemed like I’d just sweat it out. Sugary drinks made me feel sticky. I couldn’t imagine drinking straight electrolytes, mainly because of the sweeteners and flavorings used. I used unflavored Pedialyte as a recovery drink. I liked water.
They say you get used to it. I only tolerated it. Don’t use AC. Use a swamp cooler. Start early in the morning and work into the heat. Drink the local water. As the day gets hotter, the wind will shift. You’ll get a 1 o’clock breeze. Try to be done by 2 . I was doing masonry. The breeze would give you a second wind and we’d often do 12 hour days. The worst part was when it was 100* at midnight and you could never really cool off. Moving to Morongo Valley solved that.
A lot of trails going out of Morongo. You had the cowboys running cattle, the horse people, then you had the growers. You’ll see a lot of drip lines. Little Morongo up past Pierce Ranch.

[Jerry Adams]

Based on gear skeptic video, it seems like 1/2 or 1 teaspoon of “lite” salt (50% sodium, 50% potassium) would be good to replace electrolytes on a warm hike

So, I took 1/2 teaspoon per day, mixed with drinking water, on a trip with 85F temp.  There were no negative affects.  I couldn’t really tell if it helped, maybe a little.

Next, I’ll try 1 teaspoon per day.

I make some cookies to eat during a day of hiking.  It would be easy to add 1/2 or 1 teaspoon of salt to them when I’m making them.  I make some packets of oatmeal to eat in the morning.  I currently put 1/8 teaspoon per packet, for taste.  I’m going to change that to 1/2 teaspoon.  That would be a convenient way to add electrolytes.

[Jerry Adams]

I did a trip using electrolytes

1/2 teaspoon “lite” salt in a pint of drinking water once or twice a day

1/2 teaspoon in oatmeal in the morning

1/2 teaspoon in rehydrated soup in the evening

I did 54 miles in 6 days.  75F or so but hot in the sun.

Maybe I’ve always had an electrolyte shortage in hot weather and this helps.  I went further than I’d normally do and I could have gone further.

About 2 ounces:

[DWR D]

Well.. the OP’s trip is done, but a good topic anyway as it is summer and hot… I use the Salt Stick tablets which are very convenient to just let dissolve in your mount and they taste great. or… the NUUN tablets which dissolve in water. I use MUCH less than recommended and works for me.. RE the Gatorade Zero…  they use Sucralose, and artificial sweetener. Artificial sweeteners have been associated with some pretty extreme health issues. The Salt Stick and NUUN products use stevia, a natural sweetener…

[Bill Budney]

Jerry: That’s an interesting test report, thanks. A scant half teaspoon per LITER is probably enough, though. At least you know that you took enough for your performance test.

Agreed that Lite Salt (50% NaCl, 50% KCl) is all that is necessary for sweat replacement. Get your calcium from a protein shake and adequate magnesium elsewhere.

[Brad W]

As someone who is sensitive to salt, the ring test caused me to take pause. My fingers swell during exertion regardless of electrolyte intake. They also swell a little when I have consumed more salt than what my body does well on-generally over 1.5g/day non-exercise days. I find the current trend of mega salt doses in electrolytes blasted on social media-LMNT for example, shocking-1g of sodium per serving. They even claim more salt is good for you-“A growing body of research reveals that optimal health outcomes occur at sodium levels 2-3x government recommendations.” That’s way too much for me. I have found low doses with a good ratio of sodium, potassium, magnesium and calcium are tolerable and I don’t get that over salted feeling which can be horrible. Hammer Nutrition Fizz tablets are the best I have found. Gatorade Zero packets are also good, albeit a bit more mild, but tasty.

[Jerry Adams]

Yeah, I have also heard that excess salt causes swelling, the opposite of what the gear skeptic said.

A mystery.

I was looking at my fingers but they didn’t seem swollen, but then I was taking extra salt so wouldn’t expect that

A lot of people advise less salt to control high blood pressure. But about half the people aren’t sensitive to salt so it doesn’t matter.  When I’ve taken an extra teaspoon of salt a day (0.3 grams sodium) my blood pressure didn’t rise.  My doctor said that yes, half of the people aren’t sensitive so don’t need to control salt.

I can see how this might lead some people to question the advice to control salt.  And to claim that much higher salt intake is good.  People are skeptical of advice from institutions for some reason

[DWR D]

“A lot of people advise less salt to control high blood pressure. But about half the people aren’t sensitive to salt so it doesn’t matter.”

Actually… my certified nutritionist says the latest research indicates that high salt can damage the inside of arteries and cause plaque buildup… unrelated to blood pressure…  even the normal recommended amount is over 2x what is healthy…

[Bill Budney]

my certified nutritionist says the latest research indicates that high salt can damage the inside of arteries and cause plaque buildup… unrelated to blood pressure… even the normal recommended amount is over 2x what is healthy…

Hmmm… That sounds pretty suspicious, DWR. I’d be curious which study(ies) your nutritionist is referring to.

[DWR D]

Certified Coronary Care nutritionist and Cardiologist… I don’t have a reference for the report by you can Goggle it.

[DWR D]

Ok… took less than 60 seconds to Google:

Harvard Health Publishing…

https://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/salty-diet-linked-to-narrowed-arteries-in-the-heart-and-neck

[Bill Budney]

Yeah, that is the sus part. The article refers to a weak study that was thoroughly debunked last year when it was published. IIRC, a far more likely cause of the observations was high carbohydrates rather than high salt.

As Jerry points out so humorously, medical professionals are trained to government guidelines, which are often out of date (sometimes by fifty years).

It is hard to stay on top of nutrition research because the quality (and motivations) of the studies vary widely. Even for certified professionals.

 

[Jerry Adams]

Thanks for the link to the study summary.  It said “The higher the participant’s urinary sodium, the greater the amount of artery-narrowing plaque in their necks and hearts.”

It’s possible this could be because people that eat more sodium also do other things that make their arteries clog.  Still, it’s useful information.  I wonder how much arteries are clogged, or how much it increases your chance of dying.

If salt reduced blood pressure in half the people, public health people could tell everyone to eat less salt.  Half of the people would have lower blood pressure so the average across the population would be less.  Even though half the people would be restricting salt for no reason.

Maybe it would be better for public health people to tell people that only sensitive people needed to cut salt.  But that would be more complicated – how do people know whether they’re sensitive or not.

I think a lot of health questions are complicated like this.  And as a result some people get strange ideas about health because they don’t trust public health people.

[Bill Budney]

I’d say the Harvard article is more “alarmingly bad analysis” than “interesting”, Jerry.

The article is an excellent example of your previous point that it is important to examine the details. Fluff is just fluff, even when it has Harvard’s name on it.

 

[Jerry Adams]

Another “interesting” thing they’re saying currently is that any amount of alcohol is bad and should be avoided.  It can cause cancer.

But I can’t find any new studies that show this.  Mostly they refer to studies that show that drinking many drinks a day can cause problems, which is reasonable, good studies to show this.

But recently WHO came out with the any alcohol is bad campaign.  The Oregon Health Authority started putting out ads saying that any alcohol is bad…  But I don’t think there were any new studies that precipitated this.

Maybe some people don’t like alcohol and just started saying any amount is bad, and then others followed…  Alcohol causes a lot of health problems so I can see how people would think this.

 

[DWR D]

I’ll bet my health on Harvard. Even the old Greek recommendation of ‘everything in moderation’ would make sense for salt intake…

Alcohol?  Bottom line: it’s a neurotoxin… so take your chances if you think you are lucky…

[David D]

Last week did ~ 32km, 1100m elevation gain day hike, carried 13lbs because I was testing a new day pack.

I was more careful with my salt caps making sure to regularly space salt intake: one cap halfway to lunch, salty salami at lunch, then 2 salt caps regularly spaced after lunch.  So salt ~ every 1.5 hours.  I also purposely heavily hydrated, clearish urine, to stress potential swelling (gearsketic theory) and salt depletion

For the first time maybe ever I had zero finger swelling: ring wasn’t even tight.

It was just a one-off but a I have another long day planned for Friday so will try again.

Different strokes for different folks!

[HkNewman]

Desert hiking, I’ve always found a somewhat mild electrolyte solution pleasant in the mid afternoon between meals.  Probably get enough salt in the food but when exerting hard, .. maybe drink that 3/4 liter of electrolytes (Mio liquid squirt brand, powdered Gatorade).

hyponatremia

Really more a problem when it gets humid.  Construction workers in Houston (swampy) have to worry about more than say construction workers in El Paso (a dry desert area).   Running military crews laboring hard under the desert sun for about a decade, only had one mild case of overhydration (of which hyponatremia makes up most of the cases).
Soldiers love Gatorade, Powerade, etc.. but the Army guidance was 1 bottle pure water with (at most) 1 bottle electrolytes.  Figure they’ve got the data on deserts and jungles going back to 1942 .. they’ve seen it all (salt tablets, Gatorade, .. and the now totally disbunked “water discipline”).

carbohydrates

The last meal of the day was meat with a starch, veggies, and a salad (usually Iceberg) .. before evening or even night manurers.  No one suffered (well nutritionally .. taste-wise maybe).

Just to add, those I supervised were young people on average.. YMMV.

[Brad W]

Couple of studies to chew on regarding salt.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6770596/

https://www.amjmed.com/article/s0002-9343(11)00949-1/fulltext

 

I would say the majority of studies I have read-too many to list-on salt all point to a benefit of reduction in regards to blood pressure and cardiovascular health.

I don’t think it’s hard to figure out if you are sensitive to salt. The preferred method is take blood pressure readings weekly while consuming a low-sodium diet, then take readings on a high(er) sodium diet for a week-compare.  My BP can shoot up just after one decently salty meal.

[Jerry Adams]

Thanks for those links

In the ncbi link, it’s conclusion was “A reduction in salt intake can have a favorable effect on the cardiovascular system, inducing a reduction in BP values in hypertensive patients, but also with possible benefits in the vascular function and in the viscoelastic properties of the large arteries.”.

It said that to tell if you’re sensitive to salt you should restrict salt for a week, and then take an excess of salt for a week, and see if that affects your blood pressure.  But that is too difficult for doctors and patients to do.  People won’t reliably do that experiment.  So they discount that to treat people, and just say that reducing salt can reduce BP.

And they say there are possible other benefits to your heart if you reduce salt.

In the second link it says “A new pathway of sodium storage in the human body has been identified.8
Excess sodium stored in the subcutaneous lymphatic system (on proteoglycans in interstitial space), where it becomes osmotically inactive, can act as a fluid-buffering system to blunt the blood pressure increase during excessive salt intake. ”

That might explain why some people are not sensitive – if they consume more it just gets stored away somewhere so doesn’t increase BP.

In my opinion, this is all very complicated and inconclusive.  Just reducing salt intake may reduce BP and morbidity, but it’s not clear.

 

[Brad W]

Yes, sadly no quick and easy test for salt sensitivity.  If you are in tune with how you feel you may already know just by the feeling you get after consuming a high salt meal-just feels bad/off.

Before I realized I was sensitive, while working at a bagel shop, I consumed what probably amounted to 5-10g of salt a day. I cooked the bagels and would make myself a salt bagel-dipped in rock salt-both sides, cream cheese, and pickle slices with smoked salmon on top. It was fantastic. During a doctor visit for a general ill feeling the doctor noted absurdly high blood pressure 200/150ish and severe kidney dysfunction.  I remember him asking-how do you feel? I said not great. This was highly abnormal for a 18 year old.  Many doctors visits, tests and a food log later, we found out I am sensitive. Reduced the salt to about 1.5-2g and my blood pressure returned to normal as did my kidneys.

I think taking ones blood pressure at random times is a good measure for everyone.  Machines are cheap and knowing you have high blood pressure early on gives you time to make changes before damage can occur.

[Jerry Adams]

wow, great story.  Limiting salt isn’t too bad if it controls your BP.

Yeah, blood pressure meter is fairly inexpensive and useful.  Just measuring BP at doctor’s office is inaccurate because it can be elevated because of getting to and being in the doctor office.  My doctor said to measure 10 times at home, different times of day, and average.

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