Grand Canyon Rim-Rim Water-Electrolytes

[Jason H]

Very curious of others’ takes.  My son and I will be backpacking the GC heading out end of this week.  I posted something earlier about altitude sickness and got some fantastic responses.

A lot of the responses regarded water and electrolyte intake.  We come from the Southeast US and are used to hot and humid summers but maybe not the dry heat of the desert.  There are plenty of information out on electrolyte and water intake and I believe we’re good there.  I plan to keep on me at least (3) 1 liter bottles.  I have electrolyte tabs for the water as well.

I know this is a dumb question, but I noticed a difference fluid intake methods in some online research.  Most just talk about electrolytes but I found one article that seemed to indicate electrolytes all the way and another that said one electrolyte bottle and another water, sipping from both.

Again, sorry for the dumb question.  Temp may be great for us, today interior was 83F, at Phantom Ranch, but I’m still curious, especially from those of you who’ve done the June, July, or August desert heat.  Curiosity has the best of me even if temps aren’t super high while we’re there though if things change I do want to be prepared too.

[Matthew / BPL]

I get fatigued when I have tried to only drink electrolyte flavored water. An approach I have used before is to have a smaller bottle with a couple electrolyte tablets in it. I’ll take a gulp of the concentrated electrolyte mix and then go back to regular water for a while.

Sometimes I’ll carry two flavors of tablets or satchets and make the short bottle with one strawberry and one grapefruit to keep things interesting. Also I like having electrolyte mixes with caffeine handy.

Black Cherry Cliff Bloks are another favorite. Energy + caffeine + sodium (no potassium). Not the lightest option but they go down really well and allow you to dose on the go.

I like having options and variety. I figure it out as I go. I’m just a hiker not an elite athlete running ultras or cycling double-centuries. You are asking about different scenarios and I’m trying to advocate for a flexible approach where you figure it out on the trail. Tablets and sachets are light and space efficient so you can probably afford to carry a couple extras.

Have a good trip and please share a trip report with us!

[David Thomas]

For my numerous Rim-River-Rim day hikes in the GCNP and my rarer R2R2R day hikes, I just drink water and eat a variety of food which tends to be somewhat salty.   That’s worked for me in every month of the year, including August with 105-110F in the inner canyon.  Many of those trips were while I lived in the mild climate of the SF Bay Area and more recent ones while living at sea level in Alaska at 60N.

I try to minimize how much I sweat by leaving crazy early in the morning to make it back up before the heat of the afternoon; wearing light clothes and a broad-brimmed hat; sometimes bringing a sunbrella (I should do that more); and applying fresh water to my shirt and a bandana / MF strip on my neck.  If I sweat 1/2 or 1/3 as much, I’ll retain 1/2 to 2/3 of the electrolytes I’d have lost, right?

[Bill Budney]

Electrolytes are important but not complicated. 2:1 salt (NaCl) to No-Salt (KCl) gets you pretty close. Something like 1/8 to 1/5 of a teaspoon per liter of water. That’s the majority of sweat-replacement required.

You need magnesium in much larger quantities but you only sweat a little bit, so better to just carry magnesium tablets (taurate, citrate, or glycinate): 400mg/day.

You need calcium, too, but it is best to get that in your food (mostly dairy if you tolerate it, small fish with bones if you do not): whey protein powder, cheese, powdered milk or cream. You don’t lose much when you sweat, so no need to put it in your electrolyte drink.

Gatorade Zero packets come pretty close to the right balance and are much more economical than other electrolyte mixes that get so much hype. Combined with salty food they achieve the “ideal” balance that you lose to sweat. Gatorade has been making sweat-replacement electrolyte mixes for athletes for decades — they know as much about it as any of the more expensive brands.

TLDR: Gatorade Zero (or home mix) and protein powder are great for backpackers. Most North Americans should supplement magnesium separately.

EDIT: Or, as Dave Thomas says, just eat salty food. There’s potassium in almost everything you eat, so sodium is the main thing that you need to replace when sweating.

[Jerry Adams]

“Light” salt is 50% sodium, 50% potassium. So, you do 2 parts light salt and 1 part regular salt to get 2:1.

Or just light salt would be close enough.

Put in a plastic bag, then add some to your water.

Or make cookies or whatever

[David D]

Gear skeptic’s detailed analysis of the situation led him to recommend Salt Stick caps.  Small, light, simple.

I find these make things easy, stored in the hip belt pocket and taking one with a snack bar between meals.  No hassle with mixing stuff, or dealing with spent packaging.

My hands and toes used to swell up fairly significantly, especially on really long winter hikes, a symptom of electrolyte deficiency.  I don’t notice it any more after taking these caps.

[Diane “Piper” Soini]

I hiked the entire Arizona Trail last year and I hiked the Grand Canyon on May 31/June 1. It felt pretty hot down there but I was at the bottom only in the morning. I managed to hike down and back up to my nice shady campsite before noon. The hike up was pretty hot and despite being in pretty tip-top condition I found myself feeling a bit dizzy and sort of running from shady spot to shady spot and taking breaks.

My strategy for the entire trail was to take a Salt Stick cap along with some other supplements and medications in the evening. Otherwise, I drank water during the day and once in a while I drank an Emergen-C drink or a Crystal Light lemonade. I did not overconsume water. I didn’t sip all day from a hose. When I stopped for lunch or to fill up water, I would often drink my mixed drink, which was a way I was able to not have to carry quite as much water.

Overconsumption of water is a danger as much as dehydration. It’s called hyponatremia. If you are really feeling bad try pouring water on your head (or someone else who is suffering) before drinking even more water.

Salt Stick caps (not the chews) are really good because they have more potassium than others as well as magnesium, calcium and Vit D which is a better combo than most sugary electrolyte drinks.

[David D]

>Overconsumption of water is a danger as much as dehydration. It’s called hyponatremia

Swollen digits is one symptom of hyponatremia.  A good early detection test is to check a ring to see if it has a tighter fit.   If so, time for a salt cap.

On one hand, over hydration can cause hyponatremia.  On the other hand, if I don’t hydrate heavily, I get digestive issues which can be very uncomfortable to say the least.   So the Salt Stick caps also allow a heavy level of hydration for my gut while avoiding hyponatremia.

[David Thomas]

My measure of hydration is “When did I last pee?”  If I don’t recall or if it was dark or stinky, I’m way behind on dehydration.  If it frequent and voluminous, I may be over-doing it.  If I’d applied much of that water to my clothing directly, instead of running it through my stomach and sweat glands, I’d get the same cooling without depleting my electrolytes.

[David D]

>If I don’t recall or if it was dark or stinky

If I wait that long, I can kiss the Kaybo goodbye for a few days.

So the water levels are as much about that as cooling, for me at least.

[AK Granola]

My fingers always swell when I hike and it’s hot. I don’t think it’s overconsumption of water causing that. I also always get golfer’s vasculitis. I’ve tried everything for that and nothing has ever worked. I just put up with it as one of the uncomfortable parts of backpacking in heat. At least it isn’t life threatening. It’s also better than horse flies.

I never used to use electrolytes, but now I use them in small quantity whenever I hike, even in cooler weather. I notice a huge boost in my energy level and less overall fatigue and no leg cramps. Last year I did a guided hike of the Grandview trail, and it was pretty hot. The guides checked to make sure we all had both water and salty snacks, but didn’t say anything about electrolytes. I used mine anyway. But the Fritos? Bang on for salty snacks, people. Take lots of salty snacks! Fritos don’t crush in your bag the way potato chips do. And don’t advertise your salty snacks, hoard them. Usually I share, but not in GC heat.

[Nick Gatel]

“For my numerous Rim-River-Rim day hikes in the GCNP and my rarer R2R2R day hikes, I just drink water and eat a variety of food which tends to be somewhat salty.   That’s worked for me in every month of the year, including August with 105-110F in the inner canyon. ”

This ^^^^^^^^

Where I live 120° F isn’t unusual in summer. Similar weather as the bottom of the GC. I worked outdoors for many years. Water and Pringles (or similar) works wonders. Some people take salt tablets, but they upset my stomach (the only thing that has ever done this).

One time on a strenuous hike on a hot day I brought sports drinks instead of water and salty food. This meant I didn’t have any plain water to wash my hands after a potty break.

I only drink water when I am thirsty. No other strategies. When I need to eat salty food, I just get a craving for them, no strategy here either. Listen to your body, sometimes it is smarter than your brain.

[David Thomas]

Granola:  Fingers also swell because 1) our arms are at our sides for hours on end and 2) pack straps put some pressure on veins and arteries, but veins, being at lower pressure, are blocked more by slight pressure so arterial outflow is unimpeded while venous return is hindered, causing blood to pool in the extremities.  A string or rubber band around your finger or arm will do the same thing.  Adult toy shops sell a simple accessory to cause blood to pool in another appendage.

[Todd T]

Listen to your body, sometimes it is smarter than your brain.

I’m gonna use that (with attribution, of course).

[Todd T]

Fingers also swell because 1) … 2) pack straps put some pressure on veins and arteries,..

Interesting.  My hands bloat like the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man if I don’t use trekking poles–with or without a pack–but never with them.  It’s one of the many trekking pole selling points I use on my friends who haven’t seen the light.  :)  For the record, I use poles aggressively, putting a lot of weight on the straps all the time–uphill, downhill, flat ground.

[AK Granola]

My fingers swell no matter what, even without a pack on. It’s just the heat and exercise. Trekking poles do help, although I rarely use straps (only when skiing). I’m sure part of it is just being adapted to your local conditions. Last night I observed the classic Fairbanks tradition: going for ice cream outdoors wearing sandals and shorts at 50F. My husband wears shorts above freezing. We both take a few days to a week to feel comfortable with activity in high heat, like 80F.  Depending on where in the SE the OP is from, the heat may not even be noticeable. The heat and humidity is far worse to physically adapt to than dry desert scorch, imo. Think Bangkok. Uff da.

[Terran Terran]

I couldn’t imagine drinking sports drinks all day without a chaser to clean my mouth out. I’ve never found them very useful. Desert water has a lot of minerals in it already. I don’t eat many processed foods or use a lot of salt. I’ve never been in a place where I had to filter all my water. I suspect filtering removes electrolytes.

[Scott Nelson]

I was just on the corridor trails April 17-19 with two nights at Bright Angel camp.  It was my first time down to the river.  All of these folks talk about the heat when low but I didn’t appreciate that when packing.  It was 60 degrees at midnight and I packed clothes and sleeping bag for 30 degrees.  I would suggest leaving most of you insulation at the South Rim where you need it (it was 35 deg at night up there).

And a majority of the hikers were up and gone from camp by 4 am.  My buddy bought a 5 am breakfast at Phantom ranch and I was chomping at the bit to leave camp earlier.
I was amazed by how many more hikers are on the Bright Angel trail versus the South Kaibab trail.  Lots of tourists on BA trail that didn’t seem prepared.  You know, the young shirtless guys with no water.

The North Kaibab trail toward Ribbon Falls was an amazing dayhike. They are working on the Trans Canyon pipeline and that is causing things to be disrupted occasionally.  Pay attention to the notices.  Some folks were counting on water up closer to the North Rim and it was not operating.  Keep your ears open if you are counting on water at a particular location.

We had a great time, and I’m sure you will too.

Scott

[Jerry Adams]

In that gear skeptic video, maybe part 4, he looks at data from controlled experiments of people exercising in heat.  Mainly from the military and athletes.

He shows how if people drink only when thirsty, especially when it’s hot, most people will not drink enough and become dehydrated.  Then you get tired and your performance degrades.

Maybe this doesn’t apply to someone that has a lot of experience with exercising in the heat.  But, you have to pee anyway, so it’s easy enough to note the color – if it’s clear don’t drink so much.  If it’s darker than amber, then drink more.

Same thing with electrolytes – in experiments, people tend to not consume enough, then lose performance.  You lose a surprisingly large amount in your sweat.  The gear skeptic trick is to note that if his fingers swell, he isn’t consuming enough electrolytes so he consumes more.

There are other reasons for fingers swelling, but it would be an easy enough experiment to see if taking electrolytes helps.

The gear skeptic has all these spreadsheets to calculate just how much you need, but that’s too much over analysis for me.

I’ve noticed that I sometimes get really tired.  If I rest a bit and eat and drink a little, I’m better.  But my pee doesn’t get dark yellow so I think it’s more than dehydration.

I started taking a diuretic for high blood pressure and then my tiredness got much worse.  The diuretic really screws with blood electrolyte levels, which is how it lowers blood pressure.  My last trip without diuretic was better, but I need to do a hot trip.

I think maybe all along my electrolyte levels have gotten depleted.  I’m going to try consuming more electrolytes to see if that helps.

[David D]

>The gear skeptic trick is to note that if his fingers swell, he isn’t consuming enough electrolytes so he consumes more

That’s where I got the tip from and it does work.  His suggestion to test if a ring is fitting more tightly is a clever and quick indicator to add electrolytes

>My fingers swell no matter what, even without a pack on. It’s just the heat and exercise

My worst finger swelling is often with a very light light day pack on long hard winter hikes down to -20C.   The Salt Stick caps seem to be reducing the swelling.

[Nick Gatel]

In that gear skeptic video, maybe part 4, he looks at data from controlled experiments of people exercising in heat.  Mainly from the military and athletes.

He shows how if people drink only when thirsty, especially when it’s hot, most people will not drink enough and become dehydrated.  Then you get tired and your performance degrades.

Absolutely true. When I moved from the coastal area of LA to the desert in 1977 I learned a lot quickly. The first summer I was outside painting a large building with a friend who had driven down to help. We both got dehydrated and felt weak and dizzy. Part of this was because we were using an airless sprayer in very hot weather, and the sprayer would clog if we stopped. Finally we stopped due to our deteriorating condition and sat down to rest in the shade and drink some ice tea. Didn’t help much. We also started eating some Doritos and very quickly recovered. Lesson learned. We both saw that the salt turned us around.

A couple weeks later, on July 4th, another friend and I decided to play two rounds of golf (36 holes) on a regulation course. We drank a lot of beer (bad idea). My friend had lived in the desert all his life, I was new to it. When we got back to his house I was feeling really, really bad. Luckily his wife was a nurse and recognized I was seriously dehydrated.

Having lived in a desert for almost 50 years now, I have a good internal gauge of water management. Now I can recognize when I need to drink. One thing I have noticed, is that many hikers like to drink when on the move. When I feel thirsty I stop, rest and drink. I don’t drink as often others, but it works for me. I don’t think about how much I should drink or how often. Just stop and drink when it is time. All of this ties into the fact I am acclimated to the climate.

[Jerry Adams]

“…the sprayer would clog if we stopped…”

My worst case was it was raining steady and I just didn’t feel like stopping.  So I went a few hours and then my feet felt like they had heavy shoes and I could barely lift my feet.

I still occasionally forget to eat/drink, but not too bad

[Terran Terran]

Palm Springs, up against San Jacinto, 120* in the shade and no shade. I was drinking a lot of Pedialyte. I don’t know if it helped.  I stopped taking jobs there.

[Jerry Adams]

A couple years ago it was 116F in Portland

I went outside and exercised a bit just to experience it, then went back into AC

[Terran Terran]

That’s why the Cactus to Clouds trail is so dangerous. It’s on the east side of San Jacinto. Folks go up in the morning, decide they can’t make it, and come down in the heat of the day. I guess you get acclimated. I never did. You learn to be prepared. You learn you won’t die. There’s a 1 o’clock breeze. At least down valley.  You have to start early and work up in to it.  If you come out midday, especially from under AC, you’ll die.

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