Goretex ShakeDry letting water through

[Tianming C]

I have a Montbell Peak Dry jacket made from Goretex ShakeDry. I have been happy with it but haven’t used it much in the winter. Recently I started using it again, but I was surprised to find the inside getting small wet spots (the size water beads) after a walk in the rain. I don’t see any holes or wear. Then I did a test at home. I put a bowl under the jacket and put water on the jacket to create a puddle. After an hour, I poured away the water. The outer surface was still dry, just like ShakeDry should be. However, the inside was damp on touch and fabric color darkened as result of absorbing water. It appears that water can slowly penetrate the shell. The jacket is less than one-year-old and I contacted Montbell, but haven’t heard back yet. Does anyone have similar experience about ShakeDry?

[Stephen Seeber]

Hold your jacket up to a bright light. Looking  from the outside in see if there are pinholes of light coming through. This is the failure mode I see in mine.  None have leaked but I live in Colorado.   When I find them I patch them with Tenacious Tape.

[Tianming C]

Thanks for the reply Stephen. I checked and there are indeed a few pinholes. However the pattern I saw the walk in the rain makes me wonder if the leak was from the pinholes. I tested again with the bowl and an area on the jacket that doesn’t have any pinholes. 10 min later, the inside is wet again. Something interesting is that the 10 min test was about as damp as the 1 hour test. The amount of water that got through was just enough to make the inner fabric damp, but it appears to stop after that.

[Jerry Adams]

maybe wash it?  If there’s dirt or oil on it it can affect the water proofness

nikwax tech wash and tx.direct is an example of products

[Stephen Seeber]

Hi Tianming C:  I tried your experiment and got the same results.  I have a brand new, never used Shakedry at home.  Tomorrow, I will try the same experiment.  I will be interested in what Montbell has to say when they get back to you.

[Tianming C]

Jerry you are right. I washed my jacket and did the bowl puddle test again. After 10 minutes, only a small spot inside was damp, as opposed to the entire puddle area getting damp before the wash. Looks like ShakeDry behaves differently to traditional Goretex with DWR. In my experience when Goretex with DWR gets dirty, the face fabric can get wet but the water doesn’t through.

[Mark Verber]

Really interested to hear that washing resolved your issue.  My experience with the ArcTeryx Norvan SL and GoreWear R7 has been no leaking in the fabric – Norvan zipper wasn’t so good :(.  Both got periodically washed… I guess frequently enough that the waterproof wasn’t degraded.

[Sam Farrington]

I only use Patagonia H2No products, and have not used Goretex and other waterproof breathables for many years.  I will try some of your bowl tests on the Patagonia jackets.  They do allow me to become moist in heavy rain with high exertion.  But I always assumed that was because the jackets could not vent my own perspiration fast enough. I do wear a polyester short sleeve polo shirt under the H2No jackets, and while the polo shirts appear to absorb only slight amounts of moisture, my arms, which have direct contact with the inside of thejackets, do develop small drops of either perspiration or rain water coming through – don’t know which.

Jerry, that’s a great idea.  Do you think Atsko Sportwash would be as suitable as the other two products you mentioned?

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

Most GTX uses a continuous PU-layer to catch bodily contaminants; the AP-variants of GTX, like Shakedry and Pro Most Breathable do away with the PU-layer and instead use a multilayer ePTFE-membrain with the middle layer having a different poresize and acting as the catchlayer for those contaminants.

Also it works in a more complex way then just the simple explanation of ‘pores big enough to pass water vapor but small enough to not pass liquid water’. Clean ePTFE-pores indeed will do that as PTFE is hydrophobic. ePTFE-pores covered with contaminants becomes pretty hydrophilic however and will pass liquid water.

Added to that, Shakedry has no face fabric which catches some of the dirt.

So propably that’s the reason why it is recommended to wash Shakedry regularly.

[Jerry Adams]

great that worked

did you include a treatment of the DWR layer?  The last step being to put it in drier to heat it and activate

I have no idea if nikwax, atsko, grainger, or… are better

I recently used a nikwax product to wash my down jacket.  Seemed to have worked.

A while ago I used a Grainger product intended for down and also had a waterproofing function.  That restored waterproofness to a WPB jacket.  But I wouldn’t recommend a product that did both down and WPB.  It seems like a product for just down would be better for just down, and a WPB product for just WPB.

[Stumphges]

Jerry, there is no DWR layer with Shakedry. The outer layer is PFTE, so is as, or more, hydrophobic than PFCs or hydrocarbon (wax) DWR “finishes.”

[Stephen Seeber]

I tested my old Shakedry on my HH tester.  I intended to test it up to 10000mmwc.  I tried a few spots.  All leaked between 1500 and 2500 mmwc.  Of course, since it leaked in my initial test with a puddle of water less than 1/2″ deep, we can assume that the hydrostatic head at the worst case is nearly zero.  I then  washed the jacket in warm water with some liquid detergent and remeasured.  The leakage behavior was unchanged.  I would say this jacket’s days as a rain layer are finished.  I have used this jacket constantly for about 2 1/2 years.  It is always stuffed into my lumbar bag.  It has never leaked but I don’t see much rain and and when I do, it is usually relatively short.  In fact, I figured it was ready for retirement back in the summer and purchased another and had even longer pit zips installed.  So, I guess it is time to retire this and switch to the new one.  I intend to wash the new one more frequently.  As a ball park, I would say if you purchase one of these, you should expect less than two years if you use it with high frequency, as I do, year round.

Here are two images that show what is happening with my jacket.

The upper photomicrograph is taken with both top lighting and backlighting turned off.  The lower image shows the same area with backlighting (from beneath the jacket) turned on.  What we are seeing are numerous tiny holes. A lot of these holes are around .05mm across.  These small holes cannot be seen by holding the jacket up to the sun.  The readily visible holes are much larger. A rain drop can range from .5mm to 4mm.   Without pressure, these are holes are too small for a raindrop to penetrate. They will just sit on the hydrophobic surface.  When pressure is applied the drops can be squeezed through these holes.  Unless substantial pressure is applied, the leaks will wet the interior of the jacket but not deposit much moisture on underlying surfaces.

I looked at my new jacket under the microscope at various locations and saw no holes.

So, what is the story of Tianming’s jacket?  Did washing “fix” the issue or perhaps the original tests occurred where tiny holes are present and the final test was at a location where no holes were present.  I guess time will tell for him or he can do more extensive testing and determine if washing really appears to be effective.  Woubier’s explanation may be correct but hard to prove.  Yet, I think anyone using these jackets should take his advice and wash the jacket frequently.  This advice is consistent with what Montbell recommends (see below).

The test performed by Tianming seems to be a useful benchmark to identify whether either washing or retirement is in order for these jackets.

From the Gore website: 

SPECIAL CARE
FOR GORE-TEX SHAKEDRY™ GARMENTS
 Washing garments made with GORE-TEX SHAKEDRY™ is slightly different as they have no textile outer layer. The outer layer is the GORE-TEX membrane itself so there’s no need for DWR.

– Machine wash on delicate cycle at 105°F / 40°C.
– Do not dry clean.
– Do not tumble dry.
– Do not iron.
– Do not bleach.
– Do not apply DWR treatment.

Also this for all other Gore products:

Machine wash (105°F/40°C). 
Use a small amount of liquid detergent. 
Rinse twice and minimize spinning.
Don’t use powder detergents, fabric softeners, stain removers, or bleach.
Don’t wash with heavily soiled clothing.

This is what Montbell says:

Due to the unique construction of the Peak Dry Shell, Montbell recommends that additional care and maintenance be taken with your Peak Dry Shell.
Because the outer layer of jacket lacks a face fabric, the waterproof/breathable membrane is exposed. One characteristic of the membrane is that it will readily absorb oil, including sunscreen, cosmetics, the oils that our bodies naturally produce, etc.
To keep your jacket performing as long as possible, Montbell recommends washing your jacket more frequently than you would a standard rain jacket.
The Peak Dry Shell can be cared for at home in the washing machine, but we do recommend taking some extra steps.
Wash the Peak Dry Shell using warm water on a gentle/delicate cycle with zippers closed and using a net. The net will help protect the membrane from friction. Tumble dry on normal heat or line dry in the shade.

I normally wash mine with our regular detergent.  I do this because there is no DWR to compromise through washing.  I hang mine to dry.

Kind of disappointing to document this failure,  but in a few months I hope to have another candidate for a high MVTR shell.

When I purchased the Shakedry, I expected to replace it each year.  I got about 2 1/2 years out of a fragile fabric with excellent service along the way. Until I find a shell with both higher MVTR and better durability, Shakedry will remain my solution for a high MVTR water proof breathable shell.

 

[Tianming C]

Thanks for sharing the test result, Stephen. I tested mine again at a different spot and still had no leak. For reference, my jacket is 6 months old. I also tried putting a backlight behind the jacket like you did. With this method I see some more tiny holes that I didn’t see before, though not as many as yours.

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

One thing about the regular detergents: While Shakedry does not have a face fabric and thus a DWR, the membrain, being exposed, can be rendered hydrophilic. Regular detergents contain substances to aid the real detergent in spreading over the to clean surface (so they make it more hydrophilic). This will also happen with a PTFE-surface so by using a regular detergent, you enhance the chance of Shakedry leaking. Perhaps this chance is small but you simply should know that such a possibility exists.

[Bob Shuff]

Following this thread because I was considering one of the Gore Shakedry jackets for bikepacking.  I’ve come to expect no jacket is long term waterproof and breathable for backpacking, and just work to deal with the moisture as best I can during and after hiking.  Maybe it’s the same for bikepacking, but I figured I might splurge on shakedry because riding in the rain just adds to the misery of wet.  My take away is the shakedry – just like the rest has a limited lifespan of being waterproof.  So is it worth the premium price?

[Marcus]

Bob, I think the reason you would pay more is Stephen’s tests show shakedry has the highest MVTR of any rain jacket (or in the top tier if not the true #1) . That’s why its so great under high exertion. Read his MTVR article for the technical explanation

[Stumphges]

Bob, it appears to me that Shakedry is ideal for biking.

[Scott Emmens]

This is all interesting reading.

Stephen, how long is the pit zip you have added to your new Shakedry? I am about to purchase a new Pertex Shield Air jacket with great MVTR figures and will add pit zips, so keen to hear what length you feel is optimal?

Thanks, Scott

[Stephen Seeber]

My first was 16″.  The new jacket is 20″.  YKK Aquaguard. Dual sliders.  I can’t say 20″ is optimal but the shorter zipper allows moisture to accumulate on my arms.  I haven’t actually stopped using the original jacket.  I don’t need water proof since it is winter here and snow does not get through.  So, I expect to keep using this until rain becomes a possibility.  That could be May.  Let us know how the Pertex Shield Air works out.

[Scott Emmens]

Thanks Stephen, do you know if they are #3 or #5 zips? Are they evenly placed in the armpit or are they located further down the body rather than arm? We’re not sure there is enough room to get “into” the arm on a finished garment so I was expecting to have most of the zip in the body rather than arm. Do you have any advice?

[Stephen Seeber]

I am not certain of the size.  They are not evenly placed.  From the armpit, 8″ down the arm and 12″ down the body.

[Scott Emmens]

Thanks Stephen

[ZY]

Would you mind sharing whether you applied the Tenacious Tape on the inside or the outside of the jacket?

[Stephen Seeber]

Outside

 

[tkkn c]

I no longer tumble dry any of my taped garments.    I have the tape separate from the garment way too many times.  This is really bad, if the garment does not have sewn seams.

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