Followed in Plain Sight

[jscott]

I’m reminded of the line in Reservoir Dogs: “everybody’s got a gun”.

I don’t want to live like that.

[Michael B]

Interesting thread. A lot cooler heads in this one than some other places on the internet.

I agree with what was said a couple posts earlier; I am the kind of guy who would likely jump in to help where needed, but the tone of the original article made me question whether I should, as if I should feel guilty about something. As was stated, people like the one in the story do not typically respond to anything short of intimidation by a superior adversary, or by fear of being locked up – sometimes not even  by that. So I am unsure how my empathy for the woman in this story and in so many other (yes, I get it) is going to enact any real change in these situations.

[Bonzo]

I’m reminded of the line in Reservoir Dogs: “everybody’s got a gun”.

I don’t want to live like that.

Why not?

I ask not only to understand where you’re coming from, but also because – to a great extent – you already live that way.  Approximately one out of four people in this country own guns, as do four out of ten households.  Though not a majority, that is a large portion of the population; would you be in favor of protecting the rights of some minorities while not offering the same protection to others?  Which minorities do you feel are not deserving of equal protection, and equal free choice?

See what I did, there? 😉

[John S.]

The AT has alot of easy access and that is why nuts are seen more often there. When hiking there always keep up with your CPR (crazy people reports).

[Bonzo]

I agree with what was said a couple posts earlier; I am the kind of guy who would likely jump in to help where needed, but the tone of the original article made me question whether I should, as if I should feel guilty about something.

On three occasions that I can easily recall, I’ve been stopped by women while I was hiking solo: one was a solo hiker that was dealing with a bad heel blister and had run out of any kind of blister pads, and the other two were both pairs that asked me for directions at a crossroads.  In the directional situations, the same pattern unfolded: the other party was stopped, I was advancing towards them, and after I gave them a smile and a happy-toned “Good morning!” they asked me if I knew where a certain trail or shelter was located.  I was surprised in both instances because I’m slightly above average size for a man, always wearing a baseball cap, dark sunglasses and a scraggly beard, and by myself on a deserted trail.  The heel blister incident was only different because I saw that the woman was in pain, so I asked if she was alright and ended up giving her some first-aid supplies.  I think my affable manner and greeting made the difference in all three situations, but I’ve had just as many people pointedly ignore those traits and move away as if threatened as I’ve had return my salutations.  I always wonder if I’ve done something wrong when people don’t respond to a normal, societally-accepted greeting.

As was stated, people like the one in the story do not typically respond to anything short of intimidation by a superior adversary, or by fear of being locked up – sometimes not even by that. So I am unsure how my empathy for the woman in this story and in so many other (yes, I get it) is going to enact any real change in these situations.

Those are my main concerns.  It’s one thing to say “Come on, man, that’s not cool” to a friend when they say something that’s sexist or racist or bigoted (and hopefully pull them out of the Middle Ages and into the modern world), but you’re not going to stop an assault or rape by telling someone that it isn’t okay to do those things.  The very thought is laughable because our society already knows that those actions are considered to be seriously wrong and worthy of serious punishment; someone that’s willing to risk that punishment is already acting in a sociopathic way, and beyond the sway of social pressure.

It also needs to be restated: we still do not know – and will not know – the motivations of the antagonist in the story.  If we’re being honest, we must admit that he might have been an entirely benign entity, or acting due to forces beyond his control (eg. mental or physical illness).  This takes nothing away from the author being threatened; that’s clearly a reaction based on the larger issues within society than contained within the one incident, and there is nothing wrong or incorrect with her having that perception…but if we’re going to actually solve these problems, we have to understand the nature of all sides and all solutions as best possible, and – if possible – cease working on assumptions.

[Arthur]

Shilletha discussed race.  This issue has been ignored by 29 of 30 responses so far and once again focused on guns and man vs women issues that seems to be so prevalent on this forum and in society.  I am starting to believe that many people in our world don’t even know they are racists. They just simply ignore the uncomfortable issue in their lives because as a white person, it does not effect them personally.  I will confess that this used to be me.  Now, with 3 black grandkids, I see and experience the very real and widespread racism on a daily basis.  I breaks my heart.

[Bonzo]

I am starting to believe that many people in our world don’t even know they are racists.

That’s likely true, but it would be hard to prove it one way or another.  Anecdotally, I agree with you, though; I’ve been on the receiving end of racism many times and it was usually due to the other person not even knowing that they were doing it.

They just simply ignore the uncomfortable issue in their lives because as a white person, it does not effect them personally.

That sentence doesn’t logically follow your previous one.  If people don’t know that they are racist, how are they capable of ignoring that issue or finding it uncomfortable?  It has to be either one or the other: either they are unaware of the problem and therefore they cannot either ignore it or find it uncomfortable, or they are aware of it and can proceed as you indicate.  Which is it?

Furthermore, breaking racism down into “because as a white person, it does not effect them personally” is not only inaccurate, but fallacious: it reduces racism to a “white versus everyone else” problem when that is clearly not the case, and it draws a conclusion based on an assumption that simply cannot be true for a large portion of the population.

None of this takes away from the fact that racism exists and was a portion of the author’s perspective in her writing, but that is only one part of her article; the other parts that have already been discussed in this thread are – by way of her article being an intentional basis for conversation and debate in a public forum – portion of it as well.  I would suggest that if you would like to direct the discussion to cover the topic of race and thereby share your perspective – again – it is better to engage your interlocutors than marginalize them or chide them for not doing something that you have not yet asked them to do.

[Kattt]

The experience recounted in the article is mainly one of (possible) male harassment  that almost every female here has experienced. Women experience  violence and sexual harassment cross racially; this also is  true  and backed by statistics.

[Link .]

I use to help teach self defense classes at the UW in the 80’s to women on campus. The woman that was the main instructor was slightly taller than me(I am 5″ tall) and  Wing Chun Sifu(master). Years later I found out that a man had broken into her home and she fought him off for hours, he was huge and they were both beaten up  quite badly. Luckily he was arrested. Makes ya think, and for me anyway I have never wanted to carry a gun and still don’t, I guess if someone wants to they can, sad in so many ways.

[Michael B]

I am starting to believe that many people in our world don’t even know they are racists.

Can an example be provided showing what this looks like? I may be old fashioned – my definition for racism includes an active belief that one is superior to another solely because of ethnicity or skin color. I would not doubt that there are actions that might look like they are driven by a racist mentality, but in the absence of this active component that, by definition, requires an active belief, I would hesitate to call it racism. Thoughtlessness, yes. Carelessness, yes. Maybe an action driven by habit, yes. Racism – that term is thrown around too loosely in my opinion. I have had this discussion with my non-white friends, and we have some disagreements, but maybe it will be helpful to move the conversation along in the right direction.

[marvin barg]

I was in my late 30’s, having returned to uni to become an RN and 1 of 3 males surrounded by a hundred females, when I finally learned what women of all ages felt when alone or even in pairs. That is, always vigilant against some harm that might come from males. I asked my wife about it when I came home. She said ‘of course, we just get used to it, it’s life!’ I won’t bother with my emotional response to this revelation, but knowing this has raised many questions from the innate nature of my gender to what I can do to help my daughters navigate this aspect of  ‘life’. One thing I concluded was that my prime directive (using ST verbage) in relationships with the women in my life (and it sure helps with the males as well) is (the struggle never seems to end) to cognitively be aware of my gender’s natural tendency to assert dominance and just let it go. One practical outcome in the relationship with my wife is simply STOP and listen. (I’m still inconsistent with this even after 47 years!) There is, I think, a prime directive for women, but that’s not my gender’s story to tell. GK

[Gary M]

I’d only add that I’m absolutely a fan of satellite communications–first time I relied solely on my Garmin 66i last summer in lieu of my trusty ACR beacon, we happened on a gravely ill young lady in Colorado’s San Juans and successfully initiated a helo rescue for her. It was awesome being able to provide the SAR units patient information and to assure my family that the emergency was not in our party.  But in situations like this, if the follower has ill intent you will be in deep trouble by the time a cell or satellite device brings you help. One must be ready to use an appropriate level of force or threat of force to stabilize the situation and/or deter/subdue an attacker. And even if you think you’re ready, my experience is you’re not: a situation that suddenly goes to deadly force levels is an almost out-of-body experience. And you never know; when I worked on the Gila NF our rec tech stumbled into a murderer who had fled from Albuquerque to our area–and we had some interesting moments contriving a radio conversation with him to encourage him to get  the heck out of there without tipping off the suspect.

[Bonzo]

And even if you think you’re ready, my experience is you’re not: a situation that suddenly goes to deadly force levels is an almost out-of-body experience.

That is an exceptionally good description of how that particular escalation feels, and it dovetails with something that I’ve been thinking on all day…something that has been troubling me.  When I step back and read through the article objectively in order to understand the author’s experiences and the escalation of the situation as she describes it, I am forced to admit that I am completely unable to divine the man’s intentions or circumstances…and that is a very disturbing realization.

[Brad H]

Thank you for venturing out in the wilderness Shillethal. It is more difficult for women and for a lot of folks of color. But keep at it. As you know, ultimately, it is worth it. Your perspective may help make it as safe for you as it is for white males like me. And it helps me to be mindful of my body language and other things I may do on or near the trail that may be misunderstood.

 

[Dave @ Oware]

A certain percentage of people seem to be predators.
All  societies strive to keep them in check. Laws, culture, religious beliefs, physical processes and barriers.

The more remote and away from society one is, the less those checks are effective. Being of a race not in the majority is in effect being somewhat removed from those local societal protections. Being alone is being more vulnerable as well.

It is not right to blame the victim. At the same time, everyone needs to be prepared. It is also not right to prevent the vulnerable from being able to mount a defense.

[Herman]

1. Thanks for sharing your story.

2. I advocate for any person to carry self protection of some sort. That includes possible training on hand to hand self defense. Self reliance for your safety is key, either from humans or big wildlife.

3. This was an intoxicated man, maybe a creep, maybe a drifter, maybe a violent person, maybe not a violent person. You’ve assigned a violent tendency to him that he had not demonstrated. How is this just? He was intoxicated on something and made you feel uncomfortable, as many of us might have felt as well. But he necessarily wasn’t violent, was he? Why judge him like that? Most walk way from trouble when we see it, as you did. This is no different than being stocked in a big city. Nothing harrowing about this story.

4. I am not sure why this story needs to be tied to white men. I could change things up in the man stalking a woman storyline (as predators normally are men, and their victims normally are women) such as urban vs wilderness setting, time of day, solo vs with someone else, ethnicity, race, etc, and it is still the same story. A possible predator stalking a victim. That’s what it boils down to. Their skin color doesn’t matter. Or sex. This could’ve been a black, white, or Asian man stalked by a male predator. That happens plenty in the urban environment.

 

[Bonzo]

Excellent post, Herman; thanks for sharing it.

[Dave @ Oware]

“his was an intoxicated man, maybe a creep, maybe a drifter, maybe a violent person, maybe not a violent person. You’ve assigned a violent tendency to him that he had not demonstrated.”

If he was however,  intoxicated, that demonstrates unsafe behavior. And being intoxicated means self control is further negatively effected. So one can assume the person is more dangerous than normal.

[jscott]

I’m reminded of the line in Reservoir Dogs: “everybody’s got a gun”.

I don’t want to live like that.

“Why not?”

Are you mad? Sure, why not live as craven murderers who kill each other all the time.

Are you serious? It’s not like, gee everyone will be all cool like John Travolta and all the rest.

I heard several interviews with the creator of the Sopranos. He was completely exasperated that people loved loved loved Tony. “Tony is a pathological killer. He has no ability to feel empathy or remorse. He resorts to violence as a first choice. He’s a sick human being.”
This, from the guy who wrote the part.

More male culture. I think it’s important to stand up and say, no not cool at all. Kids are being shot; mothers too and more. Stop it. stop glorifying it. You’re off in a movie in your head.

[Kattt]

To be fair I think there are several people living in a movie in their heads.

[jscott]

To be fair I think there are several people living in a movie in their heads.

 

 

#Metoo I suppose. ah well, we all have our blind spots, me too.

[Kattt]

Huh?

[Bonzo]

If he was however, intoxicated, that demonstrates unsafe behavior.

Not necessarily; that’s the basis behind legally-permissible amounts of alcohol in one’s system, among other things.

And being intoxicated means self control is further negatively effected.

In most cases, yes; I can’t readily think of a situation where intoxication doesn’t result in some degree of alteration of one’s normal behaviors.

So one can assume the person is more dangerous than normal.

No, we can’t; all we can assume is that the person will act differently than they do normally.  I, for one, can think of just as many people that get nicer when they drink/partake as ones that get meaner.  Or more/less inhibited.  Or sillier/more serious.

Are you mad?

Only in the best of ways.

Sure, why not live as craven murderers who kill each other all the time.

I sincerely hope that you’re not equating the act of gun ownership with the act of being a murderer, or implying that society allows such actions to go unchecked.

Are you serious? It’s not like, gee everyone will be all cool like John Travolta and all the rest.

Yes, I’m serious; I like to ask people why they have the opinions and beliefs that they have.  How else am I supposed to learn anything about someone else?  Solid point on Travolta, though; say what you like about him, but the man has style.

I heard several interviews with the creator of the Sopranos. He was completely exasperated that people loved loved loved Tony. “Tony is a pathological killer. He has no ability to feel empathy or remorse. He resorts to violence as a first choice. He’s a sick human being.” This, from the guy who wrote the part.

Entertainment is just that: entertainment.  It is an outlet for expression, connection and understanding, and it is often hyperbolic by way of intention, and I’m quite sure that Tony’s author knows this.  Entertainment is how we explore ourselves and our society without subjecting either to any risk, and while it may reflect certain values of society and culture, entertainment is not an accurate representation of either.  Herein lies the difference between theater and documentation, and it has been that way ever since Oedipus explored the nature of incest while asking nobody in the audience to actually commit it.

More male culture.

That’s kind of sexist, at face value: lots of women own guns and other weapons – as evidenced by this very thread – and for various reasons.  What exactly do you mean when you say “more male culture?”

I think it’s important to stand up and say, no not cool at all. Kids are being shot; mothers too and more. Stop it. stop glorifying it. You’re off in a movie in your head.

I’m unsure as to where you’re going, here: at what point does a citizen having the option to own a gun equate to that citizen glorifying violence?  That is such a false analogy that I’m sure you must mean something else entirely, and I’m simply not understanding you.

[jscott]

Katt, I meant: I have my blind spots.

Bonzo, I wrote “I’m reminded of the line in Reservoir Dogs, “everybody’s got a gun”. (This happens as all of them are pointing guns at each other, as I recall.) I don’t want to live like that.”

You replied, “why not?”

And then you got all huffy about gun rights. Have you seen the movie? I don’t want to live like that. What don’t you understand?

by the way, I looked up the cast of R. Dogs. 20 men, including the director, and then finally a woman appeared.

Maybe we do live in r. dog society. I want to change that.

 

[Jenny A]

“I don’t need men to save me. I don’t need men to step up and start treating me right; I need them to understand that not doing so is not going to fly, period.”

That. ^^^ What Katttt said and Amen.  We can’t wait and hope things will change, cuz we’ll be waiting a long time.

[Author]

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