first time winter backpacking

[Diane Pinkers]

I hike/snowshoe in winter, but I’ve never been backpacking.  I just signed up for a Mountain Education Snow Basics course, to take place in February at Stevens Pass in Washington.  They give a gear list, but I’m looking at what I have, and thinking about what I will need to fill in the gaps.  I’m taking the course mostly for the self-arrest skills, I’ve never really felt like I wanted to camp out overnight, but thought that it would be a good way to broaden my skills, and who knows?  Maybe I’ll enjoy it, and want to get out more in the winter, which wouldn’t be a bad thing at all, I need to stay more active during the rainy months anyway.

For shelter, the only tent I have that *might* be useful is an older model QuarterDome T2 Plus.  Mountain Education has Mountain Hardware 4 season 1 man tents for rent, so I might need to rent that.  My usual sleeping pad is a S2S Insulated Mat, with a R of 4, and I can pair that with a Thermarest Z-Rest.   I have an EE 30 degree Revelation, an older model that has the Karo Step boxes.  I also own an older Montbell SS # 3, which I never thought that it was as warm as they rate it,  to 30 F.  My boyfriend owns an REI sleeping bag rate to 25 F, and a Western Mountaineering Megalite.  I was hoping that I could combine two of these and be warm enough, so that I don’t have to purchase just for this event.  I also have a Montbell Superior Down jacket, and Montbell Down pants that I could wear, and a pair of Ben’s goosedown booties.  I have a hooded wool baselayer from Icebreaker, and Melanzana fleece tights that I would wear underneath.

For my moving layers, I feel like I’ve got them fairly well dialed in from snowshoeing. I usually pair a Capilene 4 top with a Patagonia windshirt, and Arc’teryx Gamma LT pants.  I have a Melanzana fleece converted into a vest that I can wear on top if I need a little more.

Any suggestions about how I might best combine sleeping layers? I’m reviewing Ryan’s Winter Backapacking article that he updated in 2014.

[Kattt]

Hi Diane,

first I want to say good on you for taking the course and trying something new. I am no winter camping expert but have enjoyed several cold weather/ snow outings.

The only thing I have to add, and only because I have a feeling you’ll mostly hear otherwise ….is that I have successfully combined two bags/ two quilts for cold nights. The wider one on the outside and hopefully you minimize compression and loss of loft on the inner one. It’s worked for me and been well worth the extra pound.

Your pads seem adequate to me and definitively bring along that Zrest.

Let us know what you learn and how it all goes.

[Matt Dirksen]

It sounds like if you borrow one of the sleeping bags your boyfriend has, and combine that with your EE quilt, you should be more than fine. Personally, I alway put my quilt over my warmer bag in the winter, to reduce the risk of air infiltration while sleeping. Any accidental air exchange in the winter will quickly wake you up.

While it might be a little overkill (and heavy), it’s probably a good place to start. Lighten your kit as you get more experienced.

[Jerry Adams]

The main difference with regular camping is the snow which conducts heat away from you.  Two pads should be good.

I’ve used a CCF pad on the snow which is thin, and an air pad on top which worked good.  Maybe two thick air pads would be less stable?  But you could get an idea just laying on them on the floor and roll around a little.

If you do a bag inside a bag there might not be enough room.  The inner bag will be compressed so it doesn’t work so good.  You could be uncomfortably constricted.  Try it at home to see if it’s comfortable.  A quilt outside wouldn’t compress the inner bag.

Probably any two bags would be warm enough.  Depends how cold it is.  Check weather reports ahead of time.

[David Thomas]

Doubling up the bags / quilts work, but try to avoid compressing any layer too much.  A 800-fill down bag under or in another bag won’t be fluffed up to 800.  By a lot.  If you’ve got a synthetic bag that could be inside or beneath, it won’t compress as much.  And if the “outer” bag isn’t large enough (it likely won’t be), you could open it up and drape it over as a quilt.

Keep an assortment of hats, face masks and comfortable neck gaiters handy by your head.  It’s the quickest way to adjust your temperature in the middle of the night without rousing yourself quite as much.

[Jerry Adams]

Compression depends a lot on the size of the outer bag.  If it’s a quilt this is pretty much a non issue.

[Diane Pinkers]

The class is through Mountain Education. They wrote an email to me, saying that if I found enough folks to make up a group of 6 that registered before Thanksgiving, that he would offer a 20% discount.  I figure most folks on Backpackinglight don’t need it, but maybe there’s other newbies besides me lurking that might be interested, or they might know someone who wants it.  The class is the Snow Basics Course, and takes place February 16-20 in Skykomish/Stevens Pass, with a three night backpacking trip.

http://mountaineducation.org/

 

[windsor ak]

Here is a video by Shug (Sean Emery) using a 30 degree top quilt and a 30 degree underquilt inside of a Western Mountaineering 20 degree sleeping bag with a hammock down into the negative teens. At around 1:45 he talks about the layering.

There is another video of him using a similar system down to -40 f so layering bags and quilts does work in conjunction with clothes layers.

 

Personally my 40 degree Hammock Gear top quilt fits inside my Montbell Down Hugger 800 Exp sleeping bag with minimal compression for 51 ounces of downy goodness. However using one of my EE quilts (they open wider than the HG quilt) over the sleeping bag allows room to wear insulated pants and a parka in the bag.

 

Edit:

This video shows the bag/quilt layering a little better right from the start.

 

 

[Bruce Tolley]

@Diane

Lots of good advice above. Looking at the course description on the web, it looks like you are going out for a 3 day trip and the organizers recommend a 10 degree bag. It also looks like they have you sleeping in tents the whole time and the building snow caves or snow trenches is not part of the curriculum. Bot these types of shelters are warmer than a tent.

If you go the combining the two bag route outlined above, be sure to test it in your back yard on the coldest night possible.  You for sure do not want two very cold nights in a row. If you are out for 2 or 3 nights, you might want to look into borrowing or renting a zero degree down bag that has enough room for you to wear your extra layers.

You should take at least two or three one-liter, wide-mouth Nalgene bottles.  I once got through a very cold night in a very poor REI bag with 3 hot water bottles I made from Nalgenes.  You also then wake up with melted water ready for breakfast.

Snow shoeing on fresh powder is very very aerobic.  Take as little weight as possible.

[Stephen M]

Living in Michigan I winter camp a lot, both here and in Colorado.  I used to wear ul down clothing to bed and use 3 season bags.  I always felt I was cutting it too close for comfort.

Now days I just carry a -25f bag proper down parka and trousers. It’s 3lbs heavier than my UL setup but gear warmer.

[windsor ak]

Before I bought a Montbell Down Hugger winter bag I would use my Marmot Pinnacle 15 long bag with my Katabaticgear Gear Alsek quilt in it. Worked into the negative teens without spending the money on a dedicated winter bag.

 

[Diane Pinkers]

Ok, next stupid winter question. They talk about not having a fragile shell for the self-arrest practice, as we’ll be doing lots of sliding. Do they mean the same thing I mean, ie, a rain jacket?  When folks are talking about shells in winter context, I get the feeling they mean something different, but usually the conversation is either skiing or climbing.

Definitely not how I’d use my Zpacks Challenger. I’ve got an OR heavy raincoat that would be more appropriate for abuse, but it’s a little more snug, so layering underneath it is a problem . self arrest practice sounds like a combination of exertion and standing around, so I’m not sure how the layers would work.

 

[Bruce Tolley]

Many folks find that snow camping is not their cup of tea. I have a friend with two identical twins. One twin loves to snow camp the other hated it. He went once and said never again. So I would borrow or rent as much gear as possible.

You could take a 2.5 layer rain jacket but you risk shredding it.  You usually practice self arrest both feet first and head first, so you want something sturdy and relatively water proof top and bottom. If glissading is on the menu (basically butt sledding down hill using your ice axe to control speed), you might want not want a brand new pair $400 of dead bird goretex ski pants.  I personally use a 12 year old Arcteryx 3 layer goretex shell and a pair of softshell pants with suspenders. With softshell pants you need to avoid sitting on the snow too long but they take a lot of abrasion. I did a winter mountaineering seminar once and a fellow student was wearing a Marmot Precip jacket and pants. She did not complain but next time I saw her, she was wearing dead bird kit.

On the layering issue, I ended up with investing in a puffy syn down jacket that fits OVER my hardshell. That way I can add a layer quickly without removing my windproof hardshell.  These kind of jackets are often called belay jackets (Patagonia Das Parka) and are roomy enough for the climbing harness to fit underneath. Sometimes you can find snow boarding jackets on sale that can serve this function if they are compressible to fit in your pack.

You would still want the hardshell to be roomy enough for baselayer and a midlayer like polartec 100 or Patagonia R1.

 

[Jerry Adams]

does your OR raincoat breath sufficiently?

depending on temperature, maybe you can just wear base layer and OR raincoat

 

[Diane Pinkers]

I frequently wear just base layer under the raincoat, but I couldn’t layer if I wanted to. The right pocket has separated from the jacket, rendering it useless. I’m going to see if i can send it back for credit, then size up in the men’s.  OR’s warranty is outstanding.

[Christine H]

Yeah, I know, I compressed the down, but I borrowed my husband’s 20-degree sleeping bag and nested my 20-degree sleeping bag inside it.  I slept like a baby.  Until the sun came up.  And woke up smiling.

[Bruce Tolley]

@Christine

No one can argue with success!. For the sake of frugality, in both the SF Bay Area Sierra Club Snow Camping Section and in the Boy Scout snow camping we recommend either borrowing a winter bag or combining two summer bags or renting. The big downside of renting is that the rental synthetic zero degree bags can fill up 1/2 the volume of a 60 liter pack.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Diane,

If you’re truly going to be covering ground on snowshoes while carrying your backpack then I’d take your boyfriend’s 25 F. bag. But plan on wearing your puffy and some insulated pants to bed, as well as a full balaclava that can cover your face and neck.

And yes, take both of your sleeping pads, Z-Rest on the bottom.

I’ve slept in -5 F. in a synthetic 3 season bag in a double wall 2 person tent using a cheap synthetic 3 season mummy and cheap synthetic quilted underwear over medium thermals and was just fine.

If you try to use both bags together you’ll crush the insulation of the inner bag and not get all the benefit. plus it’s going to be heavy and bulky carrying two bags.

Best to make day camp clothing do duty at night. It works.

I have a 30 F. WM Megalite bag that I had overfilled by WM ($45.) and now it’s a good 20 F. bag. This October while hunting in northern Nevada’s Jarbige Wilderness at 8,000 ft. I slept in my solo double wall tent with that bag, heavy long johns and a down vest and was just fine at 15 F.

NOTE: As Bob mentions below, get out before Feb. test your backpack load and test your sleep system.  It’s how you’ll discover that a cold nose is annoying enough to wake you up periodically. (Cover yer nose.) It’s how you’ll know the things I mentioned in my PM are true. And it may be how you’ll learn which snack food to have handy for a snack if you begin getting a bit chilled.

 

 

 

[Bob Moulder]

Depending upon ease of access to mountains and how winter conditions develop this year, there is enough time between now and February to get out and do some testing and tweaking to dial in your winter kit.

The purpose of these trips is to learn to camp in the winter and to figure out what will get you through the night comfortably, and ideally you would be car camping and hiking in only a short distance—or maybe even not at all—so that you could take extra gear that you plan to test. If you can stay multiple nights at your test venue, a good (and realistic) scenario is to do day hikes carrying all your stuff and then return to your basecamp (car camp) and set up camp and prepare dinner as if you were far into the hills. This way you get to find out if there are any problems pitching your shelter or operating your stove.

 

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