Firearms when Backpacking

[jscott]

“But I do have some trouble imaging why a few cave men would want to tackle a Mammoth with wooden spears when there was plenty of smaller game around, presenting far fewer hazards. ”

Yeah and what did they do with the leftovers? “Mastodon AGAIN?”

Plus can you imagine what other critters would show up wanting to take part of the feast? Saber tooth tigers and such. No thanks.

[David Thomas]

Roger,

But we’ve found human kill sites of mammoths and what else were the first North Americans using those Clovis points for?  The mammoth had survived the previous 10 interglacials over the last 800,000 years, only to die out during the only one with humans around.

I’m crap at using an atlatl but have played with them enough to be impressed how deadly 5-10 hunters could be against a very large animal.  It wouldn’t drop them like a 4-bore Holland&Holland stopping rifle (if you want a well-narrated deep dive into them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDYtxxRU_cY&list=PLou0kOFCiMMriq1ofGaMyh7Atcqf-lAj0&index=33&t=0s )*, but 30 or 40 atlatl darts didn’t have to.  You’d just let it bleed out and then then start butchering it.

Is that too much meat?  A 6-ton mammoth?  Of course not.  I’ve helped carve up two 50-ton Bowheads and while, yeah, there was a D-8 loader on the scene, the Inupiaq of Utqiagvik (Barrow) harvested the same whales during their stone age period (Bowheads are still being harvested with stone harpoon tips in them!).  Mammoths lived in cold climates and I’d expect that they were hunted in the fall (much like modern, northern hunting seasons) when they had the most calorie-rich fat on them and the meat could be chilled and frozen for use all winter.

* watch the video if you absolutely, positively, want to drop a bear (or anything else) in one shot.

[David Thomas]

[Roger Caffin]

Good points David.
But how do we tell the difference between a group killing a Mammoth and the same group turning up at an already dead mammoth and butchering it? How do you find a dead mammoth? The same as they do in Africa, where the look for a flock of vultures.

I was not there and had nothing to do with it I tell you… :)

4-bore Holland&Holland stopping rifle
How about a shoulder-mounted SAM? Or a Barrett 50?
The ways of violence are many.

Cheers

[David Thomas]

Spear and atlatl tips imbedded in ribs.  Like the stone points still being found in bowhead whales.  Some bowheads being harvested now were alive during the Lincoln Administration.  Hmmm, an Australian equivalent?  During the convict era.  Before **men** could vote in Australia.

[Roger Caffin]

They had more guts than me then.

Cheers

[Jerry Adams]

I’m not a gun person but that was a pretty good video David

Those are huge bullets.  I want to see the bruises on his shoulder : )

[jscott]

A long life was 35 years…

[W I S N E R !]

Overkill hypothesis has some pretty big problems as well as critics, David Meltzer (First Peoples in a New World: Colonizing Ice Age America) among them.

[Nick Gatel]

I have no interest in firearms, and don’t advocate or oppose ownership.

But we have to admire the workmanship in that 4 bore rifle!

[Jerry Adams]

Yeah, amazing workmanship

For wealthy British and Indians

[Luke Schmidt]

I love the twists these threads take, we went from tiny pistols to archeology to artillery.

I’d love to be convinced bear spray is perfect. Its cheaper, lighter, legal everywhere I need it and can’t kill me. Sadly no deterant is perfect so you need to weight the risks, the inconvenience and be realistic about your skills. I’m mostly grabbing my 10mm Glock these days because I gave my bear spray to a friend and haven’t gotten more (I’m broke building a house). If the situation were reversed I’d probably be just as happy with bear spray. Just something. My theory is that the risk is very low. But I live around bears from April to October. Over time odds if an “Oh crap” experience are much higher for me, especially since I do a lot of solo stuff. So I’m interested in what I can have all the time. Massive pistols and shotguns are fun but they tend to not be there when you need them.

 

[Dave @ Oware]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/saskatchewan-woman-killed-by-black-bear-while-on-phone-with-her-father-1.5697706

“We’re very surprised by this. I mean bears don’t usually do this,” said Greg Johnson, an inspector with the Ministry of Environment conservation officer services. “They don’t usually have this type of behaviour.

“You know, to have an unprovoked attack like this is very, very rare in most cases.”

[Pedestrian]

Also from the same linked article above:

“…………This is the first fatal bear attack in the province since 1983………”

 

 

 

[Dave @ Oware]

”

“shooting bears in SEKI…” wow, I’m not carrying a shotgun in the Sierra, that’s for sure.

I’ve hiked since practically the dawn of time throughout the Sierra (well, almost 30 years.) So have millions of others. You simply don’t need a gun for bear protection. I don’t carry pepper spray either. The notion that bears in the Sierra are lurking just beyond rock throwing distance waiting to devour you is ridiculous.

I’ve encountered innumerable bears there. they are often habituated to people, which is bad. Still,I’ve never had an incident, other than bears going after my food in extremely clever ways. There are so many hikers, they come looking for poorly stored food and assess the situation in your camp; then move on if there’s nothing to be had. More often they simply assess the situation from hiding and you never see them. they know better pickings are just down the way.”

jsscott

They still shoot bears with rubber bullets at Tahoe too.

“After all, Bryant roams the streets of Tahoe’s West and North shores wielding (at different times) a paint ball gun, a shotgun loaded with rubber bullets and an impressive set of flash-bang devices that explode like fireworks and clap like thunder. These are all tools of Bryant’s “tough love” approach to keeping bears wild, training them to fear humans, to stay away from garbage, and to live healthy wild lives even in proximity to vacation homes, campsites, and neighborhoods.”

http://www.savebears.org/news/bvsbearDonations.html

Also I was followed by a bear down Bubb’s creek for half a day, maybe 8 miles, and it stayed just out of rock range. I suppose it was hoping I would drop my pack. Pepper spray would have been of no use at that range. Neither would the axe handle  the rangers in SEKI were packing at the time to dissuade troublesome bears from the campsites and garbage cans. They gave that up after the bears were able to spot the uniforms. They begged and threatened campers but ran at the sight of a ranger carrying a bat or axe handle. I didn’t think the bear was waiting to devour anyone, but that summer at least two people were injured by bears. We treated them like big f-n chipmunks when they came around camp. Never the less, one doesn’t pick up a chipmunk.

[Dave @ Oware]

“Also from the same linked article above:

“…………This is the first fatal bear attack in the province since 1983………”

Also from the same article

“Conservation officers have had a busy year in 2020, Johnson said, adding there have been 1,070 reports to conservation officers about bears since the beginning of April. Most of them are related to improper storage of food and garbage, or encounters with people.”

 

[jscott]

Yes, I’ve often stayed at Tamarack lodge just outside of Tahoe City in winter. In fall and spring–and winter!–bears will often come looking at their dumpster. they don’t bother or worry me. I solo ski or hike in the hills just behind the cabin I stay in–it’s a state park; no snow mobiles allowed–all the time. Never saw a bear, although they’re around for sure.

I’m all for using flash bang and all the other devices employed by Bryant. Notice how smart those bears are, recognizing uniforms!

[Pedestrian]

“Conservation officers have had a busy year in 2020, Johnson said, adding there have been 1,070 reports to conservation officers about bears since the beginning of April. Most of them are related to improper storage of food and garbage, or encounters with people.”

Context is everything……what were the numbers for 2019? 2018? going back 20 years?

But the following is far more useful information……for those that might care about facts…

“…………This is the first fatal bear attack in the province since 1983………”

 

 

[Luke Schmidt]

I’d never heard of bears recognizing uniforms. I had read somewhere that bears would see a bear canister and walk away. They’d figured out there would be no food reward.  They can be smart.

In our area a lot of people have bear baits out. Somehow the bears figure out that bait is safe (until a hunter shows up). But they don’t generally raid trash cans or things like that. That is NOT safe (for the bear).

If you talk to hunters they will tell you it takes a while for bears to get comfortable on a bait, even if no one is there. So it should take a while for a bear to get habituated, lots of bad decisions by multiple campers.

By the way I’ve walked up on baits and started grizzly bears off them several times.  Theoretically that is a dangerous situation but I never was threatened. I wonder if bears know there will be food later so they aren’t as inclined to fight over it? Maybe its similar to the salmon streams on the coast. I’ve actually heard stories of male bears of similar sizes sharing a bait together.

[Dave @ Oware]

Black bears seem to have no problem sharing Huckleberry patches with us. Still carry spray when we go picking.

—

“Context is everything……what were the numbers for 2019? 2018? going back 20 years?

But the following is far more useful information……for those that might care about facts…

“…………This is the first fatal bear attack in the province since 1983………”

Over a thousand incidents since April and you need more context?

I guess it’s okay if you get mauled as long as you survive?

The Truth Comes Out  – Corb Lund and the Hurtin Albertans on Youtube

 

 

[Dave @ Oware]

“I’d never heard of bears recognizing uniforms. I had read somewhere that bears would see a bear canister and walk away. They’d figured out there would be no food reward.  They can be smart.”

That’s what the superintendent of SEKI told us when we were meeting with him to get our permits. He had worked at the Smokey Mtn Nat Park prior and the axe handle persuasive devices had be working there. However he said they had blow back from campers when Mr. Ranger walked up to Yogi in the dumpster and slammed him over the head.

SEKI  also went thru a period of installing bear boxes in the backcountry at popular sites, then pulling some of them back out. Not sure what the protocol is today on that.

[Pedestrian]

Why the scare mongering?

“Over a thousand incidents since April and you need more context?”

You didn’t answer the question…….what were the numbers for previous years?

Was it 5000 incidents by June in 2019? 1000? 200?

What about previous years?

Observation: it’s unclear how a firearm would’ve protected the poor woman that was attacked by the bear in the reported incident. She was ambushed. Unless of course you believe that the bear would have recognized the gun she was wearing and would stay away from her…….

 

 

[Luke Schmidt]

<p style=”text-align: left;”>That’s what the superintendent of SEKI told us when we were meeting with him to get our permits. He had worked at the Smokey Mtn Nat Park prior and the axe handle persuasive devices had be working there. However he said they had blow back from campers when Mr. Ranger walked up to Yogi in the dumpster and slammed him over the head.</p>
I also did not know axe handles were a strategy.

So it probably safe to assume that generations of bears learned that

• People hurt you, keep away
• People have food you can steal if you don’t get caught

That might explain why these park bears are very bold on one hand but rarely hurt anyone (yes I know bear attacks are always rare but given the number of interactions I’d expect more of the bear chew stories would be coming out of Yosemite or the Smokies).

 

[Pedestrian]

The firearm thread has now devolved into a bear thread……time to start a new thread?

I can speak from direct experience about bears and bear encounters in the Sierra over at least twenty five years….

Most of the bear issues in Yosemite are in the front country campgrounds and picnic areas where there are throngs of careless people with food and trash carelessly strewn about, parked cars with food inside etc

Currently in the Yosemite backcountry there’s one “problem” bear near Yosemite Creek (if I remember right).

I’ve never run into bear issues in the Yosemite backcountry nor known of issues directly from others. This is a direct result of sustained education efforts on the part of the permit issuing staff and the backcountry rangers AND the efforts of backpackers who know not to be careless with food and waste.

My experience has been pretty much same in much of the backcountry in the rest of the Sierra.

 

[Dave @ Oware]

Tahoe folklore has that the native kids were taught not to worry about black bears but if grizzly came around to be still and quiet as sticks.

Sounds like CA black bears never have been very aggressive to humans. In Truckee I have seen a little border collie and a beagle chase black bears out of peoples yards. One black bear came in thru the back bedroom window of an elderly friend of mine, causing her and her cat to beat it out the front door. The neighbor had putting out seeds for the birds which had attracted the bear. That bear got rubber bullets, two different times. It was really invested in getting those seeds. Bird feeders mimic the stashes of mast stored by squirrels that black bears use to get fat for the winter I have been told.

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