Exploding Myths: footwear and energy consumption

[Eugene Hollingsworth]

LOL  Yep.  Between a few folks like Gear Skeptic, Roger, and such, IMO it’s way good enough for me. At least I can understand most of what they are trying to convey.  :-)   Frighting world, eh?

[Terran Terran]

If I ever hear another YouTuber telling me to “embrace the suck” because they’re getting a little wet, I’m done.

[DAN-Y]

watch it again

[HkNewman]

He did say level walking at 2.5 mph but there’s a lot of variables in real life such as added weight, inclines, surfaces, gait, age/health//muscle conditioning/muscle tissue genetics, and speed.  Even on a level track, running in trail runners will be a lot more comfortable then running in boots, though militaries like to periodically test mostly young(-ish) people on “fun runs” while wearing combat boots.  I’ll be honest .. right now at 75°F I would prefer to walk the level path to a coffee and bagel shop almost a mile away in decently cushioned running type “sneakers” instead of a boot.  Rain/snow, cold run off mini-streams will cause me to break out the Lowa (Gore Tex) lightish hikers on said urban coffee run.  Why?  .. btdt .. the running shoes are less work in a real sense (maybe not a theoretical physics sense though as it’s level ground .. consult your last general physics textbook).

The U.S. Army lab probably has a number of related studies out (maybe dated), but most of what this audience wants is probably proprietary to the shoe making companies (assuming readers here are interested in light hikers, trail runners, or even hiking sandals with lightweight, ultralight, and even SUL loads).  Once any sort of incline or even leg rise enters the picture, weight becomes a factor as that’s more force trying to pull away from the ground level.

Also what type of running or walking shoe are we talking about.  Historically even trail runners had a larger “drop” than dedicated walking shoes, but now some models are “zero-drop”.  Here’s a lay article referencing the Journal of Biomechanics addressing drop, cushioning, and other factors on training surfaces vs “off-road” (assuming trails and dirt roads) just for fun.  Most here will be dealing with these type surfaces and nothing too gnarly ..

https://www.livescience.com/can-running-shoes-be-used-for-walking

 

 

 

[HkNewman]

Just to throw a little more fuel onto the [debate] fire, remember some boots will also have a slightly rounded “rocker” sole assisting push off (do these give the perception of more comfort or a biomechanical boost? Both?). Some trail runners might have a slight rocker btw..

[Nick Gatel]

I don’t understand the point of people responding with comments about how they feel/believe that there is a significant difference in wearing boots vs running shoes based on their “personal experience” under some specific conditions.

Often times laboratory tests can’t and don’t duplicate conditions in the field. Goes for all kinds of things.

The 1984 Army test is really comparing apples to oranges when we consider backpacking.

The video is quoting a 1984 Army study. I pointed out that Colin Fletcher stated the same 1 to 5 ratio in 1973 (11 years earlier), which is where the “myth” probably originated. Colin Fletcher had a huge influence on backpacking, and it was he who almost single-handedly killed external frame backpacks. I can elaborate more on this if anyone is interested.

The testing quoted by Fletcher was done by the famed physiologist Griffith Pugh. This entailed mountaineers climbing tall mountains at high altitudes (low oxygen content). Pugh wrote dozens of scientific papers and almost all are behind paywalls. However this article does detail some of his methodology.

So if we want a scientific test, perhaps Pugh’s data might be more appropriate than the Army’s research when it comes to us backpackers.

But we must keep in mind that Pugh’s testing was with men hiking up huge mountains, not walking nor running on a treadmill. They also were carrying heavy equipment. Probably more appropriate to backpacking than constantly walking/running on a treadmill incline. But it is not the conditions we find backpacking.

When we are backpacking and gaining elevation, we are often stepping up — that is we are raising our feet up — which is not the same motion when walking/running on a flat surface even if it is inclined. When we run we are “swinging” our feet and pushing off the front foot when it lands. The motions are different.

Another anecdotal story, just to tick off the scientists. In the ’60s I ran a mile on a flat road in fatigues and combat boots in 4:25. It was a flat dirt road and whether the mileage was accurate is questionable. Also I had been running almost everyday for many weeks in fatigues, combat boots, and carrying a M-1 rifle (9 lb.). So I was in excellent condition, not to mentioned that I had recently graduated high school and had ran cross country and track for four years.

A few weeks later I ran another 4:25 mile on a conventional track with running shorts and track shoes. Both events were above 7,000 ft elevation. Not very scientific, but I don’t think heavier footwear has that much of an influence when running — unless one is a world class runner where tenths of seconds matter.

However, my personal experience indicates footwear does make a difference when hiking up steep trails. The example trail I quoted earlier has an elevation gain of almost two miles over a 17.5 mile long trail. And, of course, this trail has portions that are downhill or flat. That’s a lot of lifting the feet to step up. So is the 1 to 5 “rule” true for backpacking? I have no idea. But with my packs, adding an addition 5 lb. doesn’t seem to make much difference. Heavy boots versus light shoes does exhaust my leg muscles on steep, long hikes. All ancetodal. But lighter shoes work better for me on these kinds of hikes. On more normal hikes, not much of a difference for what kinds of shoes/boots I wear.

Of course really light shoes look nice in a spreadsheet.

[Terran Terran]

[Nick Gatel]

I have done the one day and take the tram back down many times.

But a more preferable trip . . .

http://popupbackpacker.com/backpacking/trip-reports/san-jacinto-loop-2009/

http://popupbackpacker.com/backpacking/trip-reports/san-jacinto-loop-2010/

Unfortunately the Desert Divide section was heavily burned in the 2013 Mountain Fire and this section of the PCT was closed for several years.

 

[Bill Budney]

I notice the extra weight (a lot) when I wear something like Wellingtons. I notice it somewhat with snowshoes. But my light boots are only a couple of ounces heavier than trail shoes. The boots are cooler than shoes with gaiters and they protect the bottoms of my feet better on rough trails. I don’t notice the weight at all. n=1 (sorry, Dan, I couldn’t help it).

I like Jon’s idea of measuring VO2. That might tell us something more useful.

Nick: I wondered who was the bum that killed external frames. When done correctly, they are better ventilated than most internal-frame packs, and allow choice of bags for different trips, or bear cans or packrafts or skis or whatever. Sad to hear it was Colin Fletcher. I used to think he was cool. :(

[Terran Terran]

A couple fires that I recall. One turned my pool black, the other one turned it green. I understood it to be different acidity of the ash between the new growth and the old growth.

I started doing the trail because I was out of shape. I’d see a one guy up there a lot. He must have been a cook because he’d be up there every few days wearing thick black leather shoes like cooks wear. I guess it doesn’t matter what’s on your feet.

[HkNewman]

The point is towards the end where comparing the low cut Lone Peaks to their [now discontinued] similar mid cut LP versions at 96g for the latter or a pair of mid cut Inov-8’s at 20g for the latter.  Searching for high top Inov-8, I see where REI is no longer selling beyond some in their outlet.

Maybe this is a plea to bring back the high top trail runner?

There’s the mid-height LP light hiker with more suede (or like material) .. but found that kind of a “clunky” ride vs their old “mids”.

[Tjaard Breeuwer]

The correct  experiment to test this would be with ankle weights and a backpack.
Then, have a variety of weights on the ankles and in the pack, and seeing what ratio leads to the same energy expenditure.

Still, the existing studies he mentions really don’t give any indication that a large ratio is likely, even with different test set ups.

[Tjaard Breeuwer]

re people noticing a big difference with different footwear weights.

I hypothesize that on challenging technical trails, the lighter footwear has an additional benefit simply due to the ease of steering the foot to avoid obstacles and land in a precise spot.
This is different than the biomechanics of pure striding. However, in the same terrain, weight in the backpack, especially when far from the body’s center, would also have a larger effect than just the ‘work’ of carrying that weight.

[Brian W]

What I am interested in is a shoe like the Nike Alphafly that will improve energy return while hiking along with stability and grip.

I would think we’re long past the idea of shoe weight as the single measure these days.

Give me a shoe that will make my hikes and backpacking more efficient, so I can go longer and farther easier.

https://www.runnersworld.com/uk/gear/shoes/a30777696/nike-alphafly/

[Author]

Posts