Durability of the insulation in Apex jackets?

[Weekend Gear Guide]

Hi Geoff,

Regarding:

“So far as I can tell, the only makers of Apex jackets are EE and Nunatak in the US and Cumulus in Poland. ”

As Stephen mentioned, please have a look at my YouTube Reviews.

Top 15 Warmest Synthetic Insulation of 2020

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2F7oKrRCstk

Arc’teryx Alpha IS – Most Expensive Synthetic Insulated Jacket Review

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycgICap_49k

Arc’teryx uses Climashield APEX on a few of their jackets rebranded as Coreloft Continuous (eg. Fission SV, older Proton LT/AR, extra insulation on shoulders of Alpha IS, Axino/Axina knickers, etc..)

I find that Climashield PRISM rebranded as Arc’teryx ThermaTek has really good loft retention as Arc’teryx uses it on their packable Alpha IS Jacket and Dually Belay Parka, both of which I’ve packed for long periods and they spring back to their very near original loft.

Cheers!

[Graham F]

Ah ha! So Apex is Coreloft Continuous (is that correct?) -this is what I must have been thinking, given I watched this clip once before.

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

Ah ha!

Dank u wel Woubier.

graag gedaan

[Geoff Caplan]

@weekend-gear-guide

Thanks for the heads up on the Arc’teryx jackets. I know they make good stuff but the prices are nuts. $899 US for the Alpha?!  Not on my shopping list.

If you look at the cost of Climashield from the MYOG  suppliers it’s not an expensive insulation, despite what you claim in your vlog. People use it in great quantities for their synthetic quilts.

 

[Daryl and Daryl]

I’ve owned dozens of synthetic insulation garments over the years.  The military jacket liners appear to be the most resilient.

The loft of the insulation is restored after I run it through the washer and dryer.

No idea what brand insulation this is.  I think most of these liners are probably knock-offs made in China.  It appears to be stiffer and have more body than the insulation in my higher priced jackets.  Its probably a bit heavier too.

[Edward John M]

Durable indeed but not very warm for the weight.

Resistant to collapse under wind pressure but only ~1Clo per layer and because they are not at all wind resistant they are not stand-alone layers, but as liners/inners under windproof layers they are very good value Especially the white Arctic ones with no buttons down the side. I wore a pair under my dressy travel pants through a New York winter and was toasty.

 

[Stephen Seeber]

Hi Geoff:

Here is the jacket insulation study.

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/evaluation-of-thermal-performance-of-five-synthetically-insulated-jackets/

If anyone has a Climashield insulated jacket and want it tested, PM me.

 

 

[Weekend Gear Guide]

Hi Geoff,

Yes, Arc’teryx is perhaps the most expensive technical outerwear brand. And yes Graham Arc’teryx Coreloft Continuous is Climashield APEX.

Regarding:

“If you look at the cost of Climashield from the MYOG  suppliers it’s not an expensive insulation, despite what you claim in your vlog. People use it in great quantities for their synthetic quilts.”

You are correct in regards to Climashield APEX, as ripstopbytheroll.com shows it being cheaper than Primaloft Gold.

However, do you know how the cost of Climashield PRISM compares? That is the one that is used in Arc’teryx most expensive jackets like the Alpha IS.

The Climashield APEX jackets like the older Proton LT/AR and the new Nuclei FL jacket are a lot cheaper by comparison.

Thanks

[Edward John M]

What is Climashield PRISM tho?

And how dos it vary from older Polargard fibres?

[Ryan Jordan]

The idea that insulation can lose loft (over time as a result of wear) but not warmth is probably a bit ludicrous and violates pretty basic principles of physics and heat transfer.

This is the problem with anecdotal evidence, and what happens when youtubers/thru-hikers start defining the conversation (sorry, couldn’t resist! but I don’t discount their testimonies either…)

I have a textile microscope that I use to look at fiber-level structure for fibers down to about 3 microns in diameter. A few things I look for when it comes to loft degradation are fiber damage and batting porosity (% volume of air). I also use thermal imaging (on real people) to see how insulation degrades over time, to view cold spots.

The problem with short-staple insulations made up of cylindrical fibers (especially solid ones that are traditionally extruded) is that batting porosity goes way down in response to repeated compression cycles. The reason is that individual fibers start getting crimped (damaged), and (what we call in textile research) “resiliency” or resistance to compression, or “bounce-back” goes down. Larger *effective diameter* (not necessarily denier, which is a density measurement) fibers do better here.

That’s why Teijin Octa is such a nice development. You have a hollow fiber (so it’s light for its diameter) and a bunch of (8) fins (so it’s effectively thick-ish and resistant to damage). Wrap that fiber in a bundle, and transform that bundle into a batting, and you (potentially) have something that’s a “standard of some type” in the synthetic insulation category.

That’s part of the premise of the Proton FL’s performance:weight ratio – but I’d probably look at Octa blends for more creative uses as well…2021 will see some advances in synthetic insulation, certainly, as these blends hit the market (we now have tricot-like mesh blends of bicomponent Octa (FL), and it’s now being developed into merino blends…hmmm…)

And don’t discount Patagonia Plumafill. They focused less on fiber, more on batting structure, and created a winner there in terms of longevity (due to macro-structures and macro-porosity built into the batting). I see this type of insulation structure gaining momentum in the next few years.

Bottom line:

1. Apex is sorta durable but you still have to baby it (don’t compress, launder gently) if you want longevity.

2. And stay away from short-staple cylindrical fiber insulations if you want longevity.

3. And if you want any semblance of real longevity, go with down. There’s material physics with extruded petroleum polymers at play that just isn’t going to make synthetics any kind of holy grail right now.

[James Marco]

Thanks for a concise summary, Ryan.

[Geoff Caplan]

+1 on the thanks, Ryan. Great to hear from a real expert!

You are of course right to point out the advantages of down, and for camp use it’s ideal.

But I need a piece that can also handle occasional active wear if I’m hit by unexpected cold, and in that scenario performance is critical. For example an unseasonal blizzard that caught me on a high pass last time I was in the Alps, when I was very glad of some extra insulation.

In my experience down and sweat don’t play well together – my down puffy turns into a sodden mess when I’m walking hard, particularly under rainwear, and takes a long time to dry. The fancy new down treatments don’t seem to improve things much, and I’ve had better luck with synthetics for that use case.

[Geoff Caplan]

Just been checking out the Plumafill insulation mentioned by Ryan.

Seems to be restricted to a single garment – the Patagonia Micro Puff.

It’s premium priced, and the Plumafill seems to need extensive quilting. It’s not sewn through from side to side – they use an offset technique and sew only one shell to the batting at a time. But the many seams must be compressing the batting and compromising the insulation.

One of the attractions of Apex is that it doesn’t need supported except at the garment seams, so performs to its full potential. As Ryan says, it’s still not very durable. But at least it seems to be a bit better than PrimaLoft.

The Teijin Octa seems to have been out for a few years now, but unless manufacturers are white-labeling the branding I can’t find any technical jackets that use it apart from the Proton. And the Proton is very lightly insulated – quite a specialised piece. Does anyone know of any other options?

[Weekend Gear Guide]

Hi Geoff,

Is your need for a 2.0 oz/yd2 (65g/m2) lightweight Climashield APEX insulation jacket like the like the EE Torrid Apex ($225-$238) or the Arc’teryx Nuclei Jacket ($299)?

Or is your need for a more midweight 3.0 oz/yd2 or more Climashield APEX jacket?

As you know Torrid is customizable and less expensive, but the Nuclei has a stuff sack, has better helmet compatible hood adjustments and has a functional hem adjustment and 2 internal stuff pockets which the Torrid does not have.

[Weekend Gear Guide]

Hi Edward,

Regarding your question:

What is Climashield PRISM tho?

Check out 1:26 in my video review:

https://youtu.be/ycgICap_49k?t=86

And for your other question:

And how dos it vary from older Polargard fibres?

Please see link below on Climashield vs Polargard:

https://www.wiggys.com/wiggys-blog/people-ask-about-the-relationship-of-lamilite-and-climashield/

 

[Weekend Gear Guide]

Hi Ryan,

Wonderful summary. Regarding Teijin Octa insulation, how does it compare with Polartec Alpha which has an average clo/oz/yd2 of 0.38?

I would imagine it is very similar based on it’s intended use as an active insulation, and the insulation looks very similar to Polartec Alpha direct used in Rab jackets.

Geoff, I think you are looking for a light belay type of jacket rather than an active insulation jacket, is that correct?

[Edward John M]

Tells me nothing WGG I was hoping for real and technical information such as fibre size in microns, available weights and thickness, crimped or not crimped, Clo values etc so I can make a proper informed decision for wet cold weather usage.

Otherwise I’ m just as well off to keep buying surplus L-7 jackets and using them until they degrade; which takes about 12 weeks of continual usage which is  a full ski season

 

[Geoff Caplan]

@weekend-gear-guide

As I said somewhere above on this rambling thread, I’m looking for a 3-season jacket for use on thru-hikes. It would mostly be used in camp, but I need something somewhat breathable in case I need to supplement my usual walking layers if I get caught in something nasty.

I find that down doesn’t work for me when I’m walking – especially with a rain jacket. So I prefer synthetic for this use case.

To me, Nunatak have pretty much nailed it with their JMT 3 season – simple design with differential insulation thickness for the trunk vs the arms and hood. Very well reviewed here. But it’s expensive with a very long wait time right now + the cost of customisation and import. So I think I’ll knock something up myself. About time I tried a garment, and I’ve found a local coach who designs outerwear for the brands, so this could be a fun project!

And what this thread has convinced me is that Apex is really the only way to go for MYOG – the newer materials simply aren’t available.

Here’s the link to the Nunatak jacket (which may be the longest URL I’ve ever seen):

https://nunatakusa.com/garments-apex/192-jmt-ultralight-sweater-3-season.html#/jmt_zipper-jacket_style_with_full_length_separating_zipper/jacket_interior_chest_pocket-none/jacket_sizes-small/skaha_sleeve_length-no_extra_length/hood_or_collar-regular_insulated_collar/10d_shells-moroccan_blue_ripstop_10d_lightest_most_breathable/apex_liner-black_10d_lightest_most_breathable/jmt_torso_length-no_extra_length/jmt_apex_level-3_season_loft_3_6_oz_yd_122g_m_torso_region_2_5_oz_yd_85g_m_sleeves_and_hood/stuff_sack-yes_please_include_a_stuff_sack

[Edward John M]

I would also consider PolarTec Alpha for my own uses as an active layer if  there was any available, something warmer than my Macpac Pisa  which I like but it’s a jacket and I want a pullover.

Despite the shortcomings I guess I will be using 3M LiteLoft because that is what I have

[Edward John M]

The idea that insulation can lose loft (over time as a result of wear) but not warmth is probably a bit ludicrous and violates pretty basic principles of physics and heat transfer.

Isn’t that the effect of having 2 layers of windproof fabric containing the insulation? Some of the perceived warmth of a garment must simply be that of the air trapped between the layers, some might also be that the degradation over time isn’t noticeable to the wearer because it happens slowly and we simply adjust?
Just a thought and I may well be wrong, it might not be my garments getting less warm but simply the metabolic effects of getting older and fatter

[James Marco]

Ha, hey, that’s subjective, not empirical.

[Edward John M]

Ha, hey, that’s subjective, not empirical.

Yep Most U-Tube video reports are just that

[Mike M]

My Nunatak Apex jacket is going on four years now and has been stuffed and unstuffed probably in the ballpark of 50 times (mostly during hunting seasons) and I still enjoy very good loft with it.  A short staple insulation would be ready to be tossed at this same juncture.

They (Nunatak) offers several different fabrics- I chose Robic for it’s water and wind resistance, if you envision using it for active insulation, Robic would not be my choice.  For mostly static use however it really excels.

 

 

 

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