Durability of the insulation in Apex jackets?

[Geoff Caplan]

I think I’ve had it with PrimaLoft. Wondering why I was feeling so cold on my walk today and realised the loft in my Montane is close to zero. The durability is terrible – we seem to be making throwaway clothing which is wrong on multiple levels. In my experience PrimaLoft barely lasts a season.

When it comes to synthetic quilts, everyone seems to agree that Apex is the best option for durability and warmth-for-weight. But only a couple of cottage makers are offering it in a jacket, so far as I can see. Can’t find any mainstream brand with an Apex offering – do they know something that I’m missing?

Now that the well-reviewed Nunatak and EE Apex jackets have been out for a few years, how are people finding the durability of the insulation compared to Primaloft and the new faux down products?

[Edward John M]

I have some older Patagonia clothing that uses Polargard which is basically APEX, My DAS was S/H when I bought it from a feller who wore it for a full seasons climbing in Antarctica. I would say that it has retained 50% of its loft and about 70% of its warmth, ditto for the Patagonia MARS pants but my Nanopuff using Primaloft Gold is pretty much dead after much less use. I had a Point5 synthetic jacket from Scotland 1980 using the original Polargard that lasted almost 30 years by which time it was down to about 30% of its loft and maybe half its warmth.

It is the number of compression cycles that destroys the ultra fine fibres in PrimaLoft Gold, Silver insulation is much tougher if the kids clothing I have here is any indication

Isn’t PrimaLoft Silver also a continuous insulation?

Isn’t this also why the failure of Thinsulate and LiteLoft for bushwalking and mountaineering clothing and sleeping bags? Don’t crush them and they seem to last forever, stuff and compress and their life is very short

[Geoff Caplan]

Yes – I’m sure it’s the compression that’s the issue.

I use a large pack so I can leave my synthetic insulation relatively loose, but when you’re walking most days that’s still a lot of packing and unpacking which can’t do the loft any good…

Googling suggests that Silver is a short-fibre insulation with a similar construction to Gold. I think Gold is optimised for high loft which makes it delicate, while Silver is cheaper, less lofty, and a bit tougher.

https://www.montane.co.uk/primaloft-i63

This means that both Gold and Silver need to be stabilised by quilting (which causes cold-spots at the seams) or by bonding to a scrim (which adds weight and presumably inhibits breathing).

As I’m sure you know, Apex is a continuous fibre structure that only needs to be sewn in to the garment seams – no quilting or scrim required. Which also makes it attractive for Cottage vendors and MYOG, as construction is easier.

Given that I’m about to join a group working to promote sustainable fashion (and the organiser designs sports outerwear!), I’m keen to find a better alternative to a throwaway product like PrimaLoft. Not good for my wallet, and not good for the planet.

[Edward John M]

My ski clothing lasts almost forever or until I outgrow it sideways, or the fabric itself degrades to uselessness; because it never gets crushed I suppose.

I did have high hopes for Polartec ALPHA but it seems to be unable to be stuffed into tiny sacks. Simply love my Macpac Pisa tops which are shelled Alpha

Would a 50/50 wool and polyester alpha type blanket work for your purpose?

Many decades ago I had a ski jacket insulated with a woven polypropylene blanket like product similar in many ways to Thinsulate in its properties; perhaps 50/50 wool and polypropylene loosely knitted?

[Geoff Caplan]

Sadly, Macpac don’t seem to sell their synthetics in Europe. I do have an excellent Alpha fleece, but that’s a different beast entirely. I’m after light and quick-drying so I’m skeptical that wool blends would do the job.

I suspect that Apex is the answer for an insulated jacket, and the Nunatak was very well reviewed here. I’m just hoping to get some feedback about the longevity of the insulation in field conditions…

[Edward John M]

I’d be happy to buy one and send it over Geoff

Here are links to the product I own and the one I am thinking of buying

Also yes I think to APEX as the better synthetic

I’m 184 and a 117chest and I wear an XXL, Macpac are a full size smaller than most US clothes and perhaps British too

https://www.macpac.com.au/clearance/mens/macpac-pisa-polartec-alpha-fleece-jacket—mens/114724-CLEARANCE.html

https://www.macpac.com.au/clearance/mens/macpac-nitro-polartec-alpha-pullover—mens/115606-CLEARANCE.html

[Jeff McWilliams]

Geoff, if you’re after light and quick drying, I don’t think the MacPac  Alpha garments are going to be any different than any other Alpha garments.  I have a Rab Alpha Flash, and the MacPac Nitro looks like pretty much the same thing.  The MacPac Pisa looks like the Outdoor Research Ascendant Hoody.

Alpha is a loosely knit polyester fleece.  It’s great as an active insulation layer, but it’s not in the same warmth/weight category as Climashield Apex.

 

 

[Jerry Adams]

I made a 2.5 oz Apex vest a couple years ago and it’s still going.  I pack it loosely on top of my pack.  That would be maybe 100 days.

Part of it is that it’s very light and thin so I wouldn’t notice if it loses some loft.  If it was a 5 or 10 oz sleeping bag, I’d maybe notice that.

[Mole J]

Geoff.

In Europe, Cumulus make Apex jackets. Example

Also. For what it’s worth, I made a Quilt from climashield XP (the precursor to Apex) a little over 10years ago. I’d say it’s 90%as warm and maybe 80% as lofty as when I made it. Though it’s had at most a dozen uses a year, as I mainly use down sleeping gear.

Also, I don’t know if they still make it, but Primaloft Sport was the more durable long staple insulation in the range.  A little less clo/m² than 1(Gold) etc, but n

[Edward John M]

The Macpac are copies of the OR but; when on clearance as they are now; a better price because the Aussie dollar is so low at the moment.

Offer stands PM me if interested

[Link .]

. EE Torrid APEX Jacket 3,000+ Mile Review .

[Geoff Caplan]

Annapurna – thanks for the link. I think I watched it when it came out, but it had slipped my mind.

Summary – after 3000 miles of trail use over 12 months, the loft had reduced but he still found it warm.

He says the warmth for weight blows him away and beats any other jacket (down or synthetic) that he’s owned.

Promising…

I suspect that it’s the lack of baffles and the totally even distribution of the insulation that accounts for the effectiveness versus down.

[Geoff Caplan]

PS – there’s a huge comment thread below that video. Pretty much everyone is happy with the jacket.

Importantly, Darwin stated in his review that he’d never washed the jacket. Many posters were saying that a cool wash and tumble dry every few months really helps to restore the loft.

Increasingly looking like Apex is the way to go…

[Stephen Seeber]

I will shortly be posting a study of thermal performance of Patagonia Micro Puff and Macro Puff and a jacket containing Primaloft Gold with Cross Core Aerogell.  (This was the highest performing synthetic insulation is Weekend Gear Guide recent insulation post.)  The results are surprising.  It would probably be great to compare these with an Apex jacket to see if the warmth to weight claims are real.  If someone has one that is fairly new and is willing to part with it for a few days, PM me.  Even better, if we can get a new and old Apex jacket, with lots of use, I can quantify the degradation, if any.

[Geoff Caplan]

Stephen – an intriguing teaser! Any estimate of when the results will be going public?

[Geoff Caplan]

@jjmcwill

Alpha comes in two versions for active insulation.

The first is the fleece-like material used in the Flash – I have one too (price is scary but I picked up an unfashionable colour in a sale) and like it very much. But as you say, it’s only a mid-layer.

The second version is similar in structure to PrimaLoft and is quilted into jackets. The market is very active cold activities like ski-touring, and the selling point is breathability and quick drying.

[Stephen Seeber]

Geoff:  Sunday or Monday.

[Graham F]

I have the one linked by @Mole J (hoodless-Climalite) packed and carried about 40 times I suppose.

No visible sign of loss of loft.

My understanding also is the ‘Coreloft’ used in my Arcteyx SL is basically Apex.

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

JFYI:

• Primaloft Sport = Primaloft Silver: short staple
• Primaloft Silver Hi-Loft =Primaloft Synergy: continuous
• Coreloft: short staple, not Apex

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Geoff, join the folks who have had the same problem. I bought the earliest version of Primaloft over 20 years ago in a nicely made Caribou Mountaineering sleeping bag. It quickly (in 2 summers) became merely a “Prima” sleeping bag without the “Loft”. Flat as a d@mn pancake!

So I NEVER again trusted Primaloft. My go-to synthetic insulation now is Climashield, and it seems the US military agrees.

Yet PrimaLoft continues to make various versions of this stuff. I dunno how they stay in business.

 

[Graham F]

Ah ha!

Dank u wel Woubier.

[Geoff Caplan]

Eric

For some reason PrimaLoft seem to have a death-grip on the mainstream brands, despite the obvious disadvantages of their product. Maybe the manufacturers like having customers coming back each year when the jackets fail?

So far as I can tell, the only makers of Apex jackets are EE and Nunatak in the US and Cumulus in Poland. Cumulus dropped their old model for some years, but recently launched a new one, though stock is patchy, the insulation is pretty minimal and the shiny fabric would make you look like a gimp…

Fortunately, this is something that’s cheap and relatively easy to run up if you’re into MYOG. I’m going to base my effort on the Nunatak JMT 3 Season – it seems the most refined of the current offerings.

But it’s expensive and getting it to the UK would be prohibitive. Plus there are a couple of things I’d want changed, which would cost even more…

[Edward John M]

Not to forget that Nunatak can’t find staff to sew stuff up; are 3 months behind  and are not taking new orders.

I had an UL APEX pullover I got S/H and it simply wasn’t warm enough for here in Winter. So for winter on Dartmoor I would say 100GSM would be better than the 65GSM but if DIY then even better would be graduated insulation with more on the torso

The insulation itself isn’t all that costly but postage from RSBTR to Oz is expensive, more so than the items themselves. What you need is a buddy flying from the USA to Merry Olde who can add a kilo to his luggage for you

[Michael E]

I have the Macpac Nitro. Similar idea to Flash, but thinner grade alpha (90g), lighter (140g), hooded, and no side fleece panels. Works well as active piece stand alone or paired with a highly breathable shell (e.g., BD Start). Also have a few (Strafe AD Insulator, Marmot 60, Ascendant) alpha combo jackets. My Atom LT is warmer, but not as good as an active piece in changing conditions. That’s really the idea behind alpha.

 

[Eric Blumensaadt]

I still say any version of Climashield is better than any version of PrimaLoft for durability of loft.

Hopefully some version of AeroGel will become more “down-like” because it is definitely the best synthetic warmth-for-the-weight.

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