Does a bear poop in the woods?

[AK Granola]

I believe people have contracted trichinosis from eating undercooked bear meat, but not from encountering their feces. If someone did get it from bear feces, what the heck were they doing?!

Most of our LNT and other outdoor rules and codes are for the other people using those same spaces. A few actually protect the environment in some way. I see TP flowers every time I hike or backpack, just about anywhere. In most environments the TP will biodegrade just fine, taking longer in arid places. But it’s not nice to look at, so LNT says pack it out. I wouldn’t worry a whit about pooping in some remote spot in Alaska, but you just can’t know when someone else will follow your path, so going off trail and burying is polite. Most of it is just about good outdoor manners, and a small bit really does protect other living things. So just follow the local rules. It’s not difficult.

[Jerry Adams]

I see TP flowers occasionally

Do people intentionally mark where their poop is buried so someone else doesn’t accidentally step in it?

That’s the only reason I can think of because the poop is buried enough I can’t see it

[Terran Terran]

Do people dig their catholes on top of catholes?

Buried Poop study

[Jerry Adams]

I can think of several places where I’ve seen poop

Dublin Lake on Tanner Butte – someone just pooped on the ground and made no effort to cover it.  10 feet from campsite.  I dug a hole with a stick and buried it.

Near McNeil point on Mt Hood, 20 feet off the trail – same thing, but there wasn’t a lot of soil so it was difficult to dig a hole.  They should have chosen a better spot with soil.

Those were just people that never got the message about digging a cathole.  I think it would be difficult to get those people to do this properly, they’re just slobs.  The best you can do is to at trailhead, have instructions on how to dig a cathole.

On PCT near Mt Adams – a small spot right next to trail.  I dug a hole and there was already poop there so I moved over a bit, repeated several times.  I should have chosen a better spot to camp – that was very small area and surrounded by downed logs so difficult to find a spot to dig a cathole.

Strawberry Point on the Olympic Peninsula.  It’s a fairly small space with many many people using it.  It was a mess of poop and TP.

There are some campsites or areas that are overused.  My solution is to choose another spot. It’s pretty easy to figure out which areas are like this.  The forest service could put up a sign saying this area is closed to recover from over use.  Or identify areas on a map at the trailhead that are over-used and recommend people camp somewhere else.

Several times I dug a hole, encountered poop so moved over a bit.  No big deal.

Many many times I see TP flowers but no poop.  Maybe a rock placed on top so the flower doesn’t blow away.  I think that’s just misinformed people, they think they’re warning people not to step on their poop.  It’s really just aesthetic – humans don’t like to see it.  Maybe you could put up a sign at trailhead with a picture of TP flowers in the wild, tell people this is aesthetically disgusting, just bury your poop in a LNT manner and the chance of anyone stepping on it is small.  I think those people are actually trying to do the right thing, they just need to be educated.

If you regulate that people carry out their poop, the slobs will just ignore that like they ignore the current regulation.  The people that leave TP flowers just need to quit doing that, no need to carry it out.

If it’s a heavily used constrained area, like a climbing route up a mountain or along the Colorado River, then yeah, those areas should require that you pack it out.  Or they should have pit toilets.  The pit toilet at Camp Muir on Mt Rainier for example.

It’s complicated.  One solution, forest wide pack out poop regulation, isn’t good.  Do case by case basis solutions.

[David D]

Thanks TT, that article doesn’t oversell the issue and is pretty solid

Not enough people follow the simple rules so I’d be willing to move to WAG bags if they became mandated.  That’s why rules come into force.  It’s not for the reasonable ones.  It’ll dramatically reduce the problem, as pointed out in the example in TT’s article, especially if the fines are meaningful.

The reason bear vs people poop matters is that it can get on your footwear and then you can fall ill from taking your shoes on and off.  Not from bear poop.   We’ve seen an “explosion” of mass illness on the through hiker trails.  Just yesterday I saw another video on YT recommending hand sanitizer over soap, influencers are compounding the issue.

On Lacloche Silhouette I once had to spend 2 hours cleaning a thunder box (you don’t want to know the details). I’ve seen big bags of it (or unbagged) in the middle of the second loop on Western Uplands and other places.

Most of our trails feature thunder boxes on each site and I still find human waste all over the trails.

 

[Jerry Adams]

Sometimes I see dog poop in a plastic bag and just set next to the trail

That’s pretty obnoxious

Maybe they intended to pick up the bag on the way back and forgot

[David D]

Unfortunately it was people poop, taking obnoxious to 11

[Dan]

I’ve always assumed that loose TP was from people who use it after urinating.

[jscott]

I find the study linked above to be hyperbolic. It takes a series of worst case scenarios–river trips through the Grand Canyon, etc.–and extrapolates out to state that all hikers everywhere should carry wag bags and pack it out. here’s an example of hyperbole:

“If thousands of people hike the same trails every day of the season, that’s a minefield of waste festering below the surface. Over time, pathogens in that poop will leach into the soil.”

Yes, thousands hike “trails” every day–but not the same trail. the world is large–even the U.S. is large. Porta potties are available on many of those trails. Of course, burying poop in sand at a beach is disgusting. But the author doesn’t mention other typical scenarios–again, forest soil well off trail in the backcountry for example. As for exploding poop–doesn’t happen.

Recall that I’m talking about best practices in appropriate areas, and not just pooping anywhere you feel like.

Best practice includes wetting and burying your t.p..

Now, it’s true that bears will sometimes dig up a cathole, usually one right next to a trail. How, or where, do I carry my one pound of poop a day in or on my pack, without risking having a bear get into it or carry it away like a food bag? Those buckets mentioned earlier aren’t odor proof. So one would need a pretty hefty bucket that was bear proof. Otherwise, once a bear got hold of your bucket, it would all be for nought.

I still think the enormous herds of buffalo that used to roam all through the midwest and west left far more poop than humans do now, by a factor of a hundred, no doubt. And the enormous amount of other animal and bird life did so as well. The evolution of the environment at large happened in coordination with a ton of animal waste that’s gone missing over the last century at least.

Likewise I’m not sold on the idea that human waste is far more toxic than animal waste.

in any case requiring horses to wear diapers or otherwise carry out their waste would do far, far more to limit the issue than anything else. Horses eat non-native food as well. So start there!!!

[Terran Terran]

I think surface poop generally breaks down faster than buried poop. TP is made to take some moisture and the cellulose breaks down slowly.

[Terran Terran]

I see signs on the local trails requiring equestrians to pack out their horse poop. Many prohibit horses all together.  Many don’t follow the rules.  I haven’t seen it enforced. In bear country, you’ll need to treat it the same way as food. Hang it or bear proof it.

[Jerry Adams]

That makes sense dan, maybe the tp flowers is pee-ers, not poopers.

[Dan]

I don’t really need or want to read any more BPL poop threads, but somehow I can stop myself.

[Jerry Adams]

same here

what’s wrong with me???

and I keep posting the same things : )

[Terran Terran]

Blame it on the women?

[jscott]

“The reason bear vs people poop matters is that it can get on your footwear and then you can fall ill from taking your shoes on and off.  Not from bear poop.   We’ve seen an “explosion” of mass illness on the through hiker trails…”

coincidence doesn’t prove causality. and anyway, can you show that bear and deer and mice poop is benign and only human poop causes issues? There’s a ton more unavoidable horse poop on trails and in waterways than human poop. and during outbreaks of hanta virus, we’re warned to avoid mice and their feces. Hanta virus is hardly benign.

I cant recall ever stepping in human feces out on the trail or in camp. Claiming that people stepping on human poop is responsible for an (undocumented and anecdotal) explosion of illness among hikers is just piling on, so to speak.

Anyway, it doesn’t matter, since the real cause of our problem lies with women on the trail. Who else would arrange their tp into “flowers”? Gentlemen of the jury–the ladies have been disqualified now that the new administration has eliminated the fairness doctrine–gentlemen, just as women alone are guilty for pregnancy, so too tp flowers!!! Ban women and horses from the backcountry!

 

[Tom K]

“but I have a feeling I’d rather accidentally step in bear poop than human.”

Which confirms that you’ve never seen bear poop.  Just joking.  On a more serious note, a misstep in either case is likely to cast a shadow on the rest of your day.

[Megan W]

but I have a feeling I’d rather accidentally step in bear poop than human.”

Which confirms that you’ve never seen bear poop.  Just joking.  On a more serious note, a misstep in either case is likely to cast a shadow on the rest of your day.

🙂…. I don’t know, tho. A while ago a goshawk killed one of our favourite chickens (and a quoll took some others). Upsetting ++,  but felt like the natural order of things… if a feral cat had killed them I would have been upset AND furious.

Pretty sure I’d be extremely furious if I stepped on human poop while backpacking. It wouldn’t be merely a shadow on my day – a total eclipse?

[Terran Terran]

Bears don’t have a complex digestive system. Like a horse, a lot of stuff passes straight through. What I see is mostly vegetation.  Seeds and such. While I’d rather not step in it, it’s not really a health risk. There are no human pathogens. The human diet consists of refined food. The grains are ground to fine powders, husked and hulled. More of a  mush than a solid.

[Kattt]

Animal feces harbor pathogens as well. Plenty of wildlife is carnivore /omnivore and there is a lot more there than vegetation. I am not fond of human feces to be clear but I am part of nature, not a visitor, not an intruder. I am home. I will dig a hole and deposit and cover it. I know it’s not necessarily a welcome position here but my sense of belonging in the wild is not up for discussion, it’s personal and deep and it is for this reason I will not act a fool out there.

[Terran Terran]

Then why bother with a catholes? Bears don’t dig them, nor do the deer. Not even the mountain lions. Why should we worry about it? We all belong in the wild. Be the bear.

[Kattt]

Because I don’t want flies that ate my poop come hover over my dinner at camp, for one. Don’t want anyone to step in it. Toilet paper is a nasty sight in the woods. Mainly though it’s the fact that I know I belong there that makes me act right.

[AK Granola]

A lot of the tp along trails is left by women. I hope the kula cloth is helping to get the word out and we’ll stop seeing so much of it.

[Terran Terran]

I really didn’t mean to place suspicion on the women. Maybe we need a Culo cloth.

[jscott]

Terran, just to be clear, I was being ironic.

And just to step in it even more, ha ha, since tp is a wood product, and breaks down far faster than a fallen log or pine cone or other biological matter in the woods, especially if it’s wetted and buried according to best practices…I don’t think tp is doing damage to soils. For heaven’s sake, there are far bigger fish to fry in terms of ecological issues these days!

Still,  no one’s responded to my points about how the environment has evolved over eons in coordination with massive animal poop serving as fertilizer, and how that last has been radically diminished over the last century due to humans wiping out mass animal populations.

I think that humans have an understandable aversion to their own waste, and project it out into our wilderness habits. One camp says that animal waste is “benign”, a part of nature; human waste is invasive, poisonous and has to be carried out of nature…even though we’re also animals. And as I’ve been careful to say, in some environments this is true and good! I’m suggesting some informed nuance.

and yes, even go so far as to wonder whether buried human waste isn’t actually beneficial to some wilderness environments, if done according to best practices. After all cow and pig manure has been used for millennia to benefit crops. It’s sold to farmers everywhere. maybe folks object to civilized soil, as opposed to natural soil…?

 

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