Does a bear poop in the woods?

[jscott]

Is the Pope Catholic? yes! and the Pope poops in the woods too. My question is, against common wisdom, are we sure that human manure is always bad for the wilderness ecology?

hear me out. Yes of course, it depends upon soil conditions and environment–pooping on a glacier is verboten, period.  And many other sites as well.

However: bear,  deer, raccoons, squirrels, marmots and mice all poop in the woods and have for centuries.

Horses do too. And horses take no care whatsoever about where they poop. In the Sierra at least, horse poop on the trail and in creeks is ubiquitous. And it can be everywhere in meadows next to streams—see, Lyell Canyon etc. etc.

So, how much harm is done by all this, as opposed to the possible benefits of manure for soil enrichment and biology–trees, in other words?

Time for a Freakonomics report? yes!

i take care to poop according to best practices. And I almost always find a little used spot well off trail to do my business. I bury it all well into the soil, and top it off with water to set the TP on its way to dissolution. T.P. you will recall, is a wood product. And I often wonder if actually, given the short season at altitude, whether over years my poop might actually enhance growth?

Of course I’m careful not to poop near a water source–unlike horses.

The invasion of sheep into the high country had many deletorious effects back in Muir’s day. One was probably the introduction of Giardia into water sources. Horses and humans and yes, bear and deer and all animals may do the same. I suppose it may take a critical mass for the disease to tip over into a crisis, where we now need water filters.

how much of this is due to human poop? I’m not advocating for poor pooping practice!!! Far from it. But, is there another side to the story? Does introducing natural fertilizer in the form of bear and deer and human poop into the soil actually have beneficial consequences as well?

 

[Dan]

I’m seeing a lot of bear poop on the sidewalk recently. You’d think they would still be hibernating.

[Megan W]

I’ve never seen bear poop (not even Drop Bear poop), but I have a feeling I’d rather accidentally step in bear poop than human.

Not really an impact on the environment as a whole, but definitely an impact on me!

 

[David D]

I run into bear and moose poop regularly (pun intended), no problem.

There are way, way, way more people using the space than large animals.

Some of the big parks out West are having a people poop crises, both the shear volume to haul out from dry toilets, or from in the field.  If even 2% of people acted like bears, enjoy the slip and slide!

[Terran Terran]

There is such a thing as night soil. I’m more likely to contact an illness from another human than from an animal. Humans can overpopulate a trail. Wild animals eating native food stock aren’t introducing foreign bacteria and such  Most aerobic microbial activity occurs in the top 4″ of the soil. At 6″ , not so much. Without trying to theorize too much, if anything, it creates an imbalance favoring deep rooted plants over shallow ones. Excess nitrates enter the water table as well as the waterways contributing to algae bloom. There is nothing that we do out in the woods or the deserts that is natural. We will always be the guest.

[JG H]

In another thread I suggested there are about 7.5B too many humans on the planet today. Without intent, y’all are making a case that my “morbid” comment was correct. Not sayin’, I’m just sayin’….

[jscott]

I’m most likely to step into (or avoid)

–horse poop

–deer poop

–bear poop

on the trail. I can’t recall a single instance of stepping into human poop on trail. And I have several thousand miles on my tread.

People poop is far worse on the ecology than horse or deer poop? Maybe! I don’t know. If we’re serious about this issue, let’s begin with limiting horse access into the wilderness.

 

one might as well say that bear and deer and marmots will forever be guests in the wilderness, and don’t really belong. After all, people have been living in the wilderness for millennia. and pooping as well!

 

[David Gardner]

Leave no trace. Use WAG bags voluntarily, before they are required anyway.

[Bern Salzhaus]

This paper from the year 2000 still seems relevant today:

Cilimburg, A., Monz, C., & Kehoe, S. (2000). Wildland recreation and human waste: A review of problems, practices, and concerns. Environmental Management, 25(6), 587–598.

From what I can tell (from having AI summarize this paper for me), human feces likely does more harm than good in high alpine zones, such as the Sierra, where decomposition happens extremely slowly—so slowly that in heavily used areas, waste accumulates faster than it can break down, which is kind of gross. This is probably one reason why we are required to pack out waste in the Mt. Whitney zone.

Another point raised by the paper is that, unlike low-elevation forests with rich soil and active year-round microbiomes, alpine zones have thin, rocky soils that don’t benefit much from added nutrients. In fact, excess nitrogen and phosphorus from human waste can actually disrupt plant communities rather than help them.

The paper also distinguishes human waste from wildlife waste. The key difference is diet and microbial composition. Human feces carry pathogens like Giardia which can be dangerous when introduced into water systems. In contrast, wild animals have co-evolved with their environment, and their waste is typically broken down efficiently by local ecosystems. Large mammals like deer and bears consume only naturally occurring vegetation, making their waste part of a closed-loop system. On the other hand, human waste introduces foreign bacteria, and chemicals (from medications, preservatives in processed food, etc.)

 

 

[Terran Terran]

I would say that the bears and the marmots and the deer (not the horses) have lived in the woods for a very, very long time.

[David Gardner]

Thanks Bern. WAG bags are required on Mt. Shasta too, and at least one other place I can’t remember the name of. I did a quick google search and found many companies selling WAG bags these days.

[David D]

My son had to use wag bags free climbing last month (I think it was in Zion).  Others

I don’t see a future where this trend doesn’t increase. I carry a nitrile glove and had to use it more than once from what I encountered, and not because of animals

The only disease that can be transmitted from a bear is trichinella and there is no direct transmission documented between bears and humans but the potential exists

 

[Terran Terran]

Yeah thanks Bern. I missed your post. It explains quite eloquently and much more accurately the points that I was trying to make. I’m coming around to the idea of wag bags, though I’m not sure if they’re a great choice environmentally. While they may serve a purpose on Mt, Whitney or for climbers, they create more waste with all the problems that comes with it.

[Tom B]

Human poop contains drugs.

But then the bigger problem is drugs in human urine.

Much more difficult to manage.

[Terran Terran]

We could put a tariff on the bears. Blame than.

[Paul Wagner]

The other element to factor into this discussion is the population density of these areas.  A single bear in a mountain valley cannot compare to 500 or 1,000 humans there, even if they are spread out over time, they are almost certainly concentrated in area.

I volunteer in Desolation Wilderness, the busiest (pop/mile) wilderness in the USA.  It uses quotas to manage use by region, but even so, the busiest lakes get up to 25 people per night…and are always full. That’s a lot of poop in one place.

Yosemite, SEKI, and others have installed pit toilets in some popular backcountry destinations for just this reason.

[Terran Terran]

In the year 2525. If man is still alive.

Drop in porta potties by helicopter. Prevent overuse by designating the toilets thru the permit system. Require portable containers. Wag bag or waterproof sack. Doggie bags. Urine filtration.

[Jerry Adams]

In the enchantments in central washington, they have these portable toilet.  They bring them in and out with helicopter

[Bern Salzhaus]

Paul,

Thanks for your volunteer work. Unfortunately, I think waste carryout will need to become the norm in heavily used, high-elevation areas like Lake Aloha in Desolation Wilderness. I came up in a time when cat holes were standard—likely sufficient when there were fewer trail users than there are today. I don’t love the idea of carrying out my waste, but the alternative is most certainly worse.

Last spring, I took a trip around a part of the Colorado Plateau where waste carryout is required. It was my first trip where I carried it all out. I can attest that it’s really not that big a deal once you get over the initial ick factor. Making sure you have a bomber system that is absolutely odor-proof is key. As more and more people visit these special places, we must find ways to share them responsibly.

[jscott]

I did note that human poop is and should be verboten on glaciers ‘and other environments”, by which I had high, thin alpine soils in mind. I hike mostly in the Sierra, so this last is very familiar. Yet another reason to “hike high, camp low”.

Lake Aloha has very thin to non-existent soil. And campsites are near the lake and streams flowing there. Simply common sense would suggest not to poop there. AND for the forest service to install a portapotty. I mean, there’s no way to dig a hole to bury poop in that vicinity.

So of course, soil and other conditions matter.

As for drugs in pee and poop…hmmm…are we sure that when properly buried in deeper soil in a forest environment, drugs leaching out over years are causing an environmental impact that outweighs the input of nutrients into the soil provided by that same human waste? I honestly don’t know.

I personally am far more concerned by horse poop on trail and even in small creeks and streams. And for that matter, deer and marmot and bear poop in those same water sources. Why? Bear and deer and marmots don’t follow best practices. The vast majority of humans do.

I recall listening to Rush Limbaugh rant against a new wilderness designation that stopped logging in that area. “If the radical marxist environmentalists really cared about the wilderness, they’d stop hiking!!! then we’d be free to log that area with no hippy opposition.”

Stay out of the wilderness to save it from drug abuse? No.

again, I’d like to see a Gear Skeptic/ Freakonomics style essay about all this. The nutrients leached into forest soil from human waste must have some positive benefits. After all, manure of all sorts has been used for centuries to encourage plant growth. Centuries. I might argue that manure would be healthier for human ecology than the current chemical alternatives–roun-up, etc.–that are causing major concerns. And indeed, organic farmers use manure in most cases rather than these chemicals.

Who’s ready to haul out their pee and poop while hiking the PCT? Because of drugs in their waste?

It’s important to recall the vastness of the wilderness. Most hikers stay along a narrow thread of land that winds through untold acres.

 

[Terran Terran]

The nutrients leached into forest soil from human waste must have some positive benefits

Yet it manages just fine without it. I’ll float that one along with raking the forest to prevent fires…nature doesn’t need our help. The only positives that we may provide are only in our own minds. Nature is in balance with itself. Ying and yang. We change that balance to suit ourselves creating positive changes that only suit us. In turn we seek nature to get away from it all while bringing it all with us. Nature simply deals with us. We are the oddballs.

[Megan W]

I’m not so sure about ‘the vast majority of humans following best practice ‘… (actually, pretty sure they don’t).

This article is about Tasmanian bushwalking and poop problems – common themes (we are slowly catching up to you! ). Basically, increasing numbers of people and many not following ‘best practice ‘.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/103374466

Not sure if i did the link right.

 

[Terran Terran]

$3000 an hour for a helicopter to haul poop. I’ve considered a smelly bag inside a DCF bag. How do you haul a bag of poop without looking like you’re hauling a bag of poop. The buckets are the answer. We need an ultralight version. As long as the drop bears don’t get a hold of them.

[David D]

We don’t get anywhere near the foot traffic the parks out west do and as I mentioned earlier, unfortunately need to carry a nitrile glove to clean up after human waste. “Vast majority” or not, human poop in the open is already well past the tipping point, at least in my neck of the woods

[jscott]

the last ice age ended nearly 12,000 years ago. So, if we assume from that date all animals have been living and relieving themselves–and they have–well…that’s a lot of poo! Let’s especially not forget about birds. Around Audubon’s time, and from the entire ice age up until his day, and well beyond, the skies contained an incredible number of birds. More than we can even imagine, frankly. Ever been around geese? They tend to leave a mess. One would assume that wildlife in general was far more plentiful than today–think of the buffalo herds. and beaver!! seriously, the entire western landscape was much different before beaver were wiped out by traders. And was much more fire resistant as a result.

Given the loss of birds and wildlife in general, one can only think there’s been an overall manure deficiency in the wild over the last two hundred years, relative to the previous ten thousand years.

My point? Humans have been entering the parks and wildlands in numbers beginning a hundred years ago. But really, only over the last 60. And even then, impact has been concentrated in small easily accessible areas.

I wonder about the whole thesis of “animal poop is benign and part of nature while human poop is alien and poisonous.” The last I heard, we were also creatures of nature. Yes, we cook our food. That’s been a huge benefit for us. It also kills pathogens. How is cooked food horrible for soil, while raw food is “natural” and so beneficial and benign? Despite the warnings about pee and poo being infested with drugs, and you know, tacos, and curry lentil stew, I still think it’s possible–possible!–that a well dug cat hole in an off trail forest environment actually serves to bring nutrients to and feed the forest biome in a positive way.

Of course, Yosemite Valley and other heavily trafficked areas are another matter.

Perhaps humans are actually making up a major loss of poo in the wilds, caused by human depredation to biology as a whole.

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