Clothing Ensemble for Wet Mountain High Route

[Ryan Jordan]

I’m getting ready for a high route trip up in BC (Purcells). Historically prone to sustained periods of wet / cold weather. If the forecast is good I plan to take a more conventional lightweight clothing system that includes a down quilt and/or down jacket. Otherwise, I’m planning on having to hike through exposed high terrain regardless of weather, because we can only carry so much food and need to keep moving towards our exit.

So I’m trying to put together a system that gives me the insurance needed if I stay wet(ish) and can’t dry out gear, and will keep me warm if the wind is blowing and it’s 40 degrees and it’s raining and I’m hiking a 10,000 foot ridgeline.

So I made a photo, because it’s easier for me to visualize:

The items in the photo aren’t an exact match of what I’m planning on taking, but here’s the list:

Trekking Clothes (mosquitoes, bushwhacking in dense cedar/hemlock forests):

• long sleeve polyester shirt (Patagonia Sun Stretch)
• nylon pants (Patagonia Quandary)

Storm Clothes:

• wind jacket (Patagonia Houdini Jacket)
• rain gear (Montane Minimus 777 Jacket & ZPacks Challenger Pants)

Insulating / Camp Layers:

• BPL Cocoon 240 Quilt
• Patagonia Nano Air Vest
• Patagonia Piton Fleece Hoody
• Patagonia Lightweight Capilene Bottoms

Other:

• Merino midweight hiking socks
• ZPacks Challenger Gaiters
• OR Vert Gloves
• Salewa Mountain Trainer shoes

Thoughts on these specific item choices, esp. anyone who has experience with the Piton (or its competition) or Nano Air Vest (or its competition)? Replacing a down jacket with two layers (the fleece hoody and synthetic vest) irks me a smidge due to the added complexity but the need to stay moving in bad weather may necessitate it.

Also curious if anyone has found a shoe that has the tech performance of the Salewas with more cushioning / drainage. These are the most cushioned technical shoes I’ve worn, but I’m not a fan of the fact that they drain horribly after a river crossing.

Also for gram counters: the footwear/clothing/sleep insulation system in the photo weighs about 7.7 lbs…

[Brad Rogers]

Why the Wind Pro Fleece?  You have a windshirt and windproof fleece doesn’t dry well, not to mention Patagonia Fleece is $$$$ (but high quality).  I might look at the Melanzana Thermal Pro High Loft hoody for maximum warmth (or equivalent Polartec High Loft hoody from Mountain Equipment or Patagonia) instead.  If you think that is overkill a classic Polartec fleece would be a good choice (although you probably can’t find one with a hood) or an R1 hoody.

Are you bushwhacking?  If so, will the raingear you have chosen hold up?  If I am going somewhere I don’t expect days of constant rain (Sierras, Rockies) I take similar light raingear, but if I am going in expecting to wear my raingear most of the time (Alaska) I might suck it up and take something heavier, more waterproof, and with better venting options.  I have no experience with either of your picks though, so I can’t comment from experience on those particular pieces.

Those gloves look like they would get soaked and be miserable.  I might try fleece liner gloves, a fleece mitt (if you think you might need it) and WP mitts over top of both when needed (or used by themselves).

 

[Ryan Jordan]

@mocs123 – excellent questions, I’ve been asking them myself.

The windpro fleece, when it’s not raining, is a terrific high mountain, high activity level, cold weather layer, and more comfortable (breathable) than ____ (anything) + wind shirt – a system that gets hot quick due to a wind shirt’s inherent lack of breathability.

I’m actually tempted to forgo the wind shirt if I do bring a windpro fleece…

The R0.5/R1 offer better breathability (but are less warm) and probably make more sense if a wind shirt is part of the system. The Piton is actually lighter than the R1. The R0.5 / EW Cap hoody is really thin and very airy, more base-layer like.

That Melanzana hoody looks luxurious! Very R3-like…and at a great price. I bet it would be too hot under a wind shirt/shell though for above-freezing temps.

Yes, the raingear is light for bushwhacking. But I’m hoping to do as little of that as possible and stay high. Bushwhacking will get serious if we have to exit early and can’t reach our destination goal.

The gloves do get wet, but they’re not a miserable, soppy, wet. They are there for scrambling and the dexterity for dealing with ropes / ice axe etc. Lots of experience with them on trips like this I’m a fan. Plus they’re good bushwhacking and firewood gloves.

[James holden]

ive used windpro fleece for years (dont make me post up a photo of my torn up old made in canada taiga windpro pants) … i actually find it to be better than grid fleece in the rain because of the fuzziness on the inside … windpro also dries fairly quickly (it has no membrane like windbloc)

the question you need to ask is how much constant non-stop rain do you expect … if its the typical on and off alpine storms with breaks youll be fine … if its non stop PNW winter type rains then i would move away from the piton and towards an actual thermal pro fleece (you can get non-hilghloft) … when totally soaked there is no wicking anyways and a snugger fitting fleece will press against the body increasing the water contact on the skin/base … or perhaps full (not hybrid) wind pro fleece, though thermal pro is warmer

i dont think the windshirt is needed if you go windpro … however i would bring it if you went with normal fleece

usually i run pretty hot and dont wear a fleece under a rain shell … however all that goes out the window should you get totally soaked, in those cases even with a fleece and shell ive stayed fairly cool even when moving … if you are going slowly or performing technical tasks then an actual fleece is better than a grid/windpro, as its thicker (more air gap), less snug, and is fuzzy on both sides (minimizes the contact with the skin and shell)

thermal pro high loft fleece is the “ultimate insurance” (other than a synth bag/quilt) in wet cold temps … ive worn it without a shell and never got more than just damp even in constant rain in the move … and as a static layer nothing beats it in cold wet conditions

if its wet and cold youll be wearing those long johns under your rain pants … in the cold rain any skin that contacts modern UL WPB surfaces (not tricot lined) will feel clammy and eventually get chilled … i would count on those long johns on being damp to wet at the end of a day (which is fine as you can dry em out under a synth quilt) … note that wet nylon wants under WPB pants (theyll be soaked by the time you need to put on rain pants) dont work too well, a light base under WPB pants work much better

one issue i see right away are the socks … in cold wet constant rain especially with wind … your feet will become quite cold if you keep stepping in puddles or need to do any (wet) snow … youll be pumping in cold and out warm water with every step

personally i use a pair of synth liner socks and goretex socks …. or use a pair of thicker quick drying fleece socks which you can use as part of your sleep system if you dont use em hiking

fleece socks wont prevent the “pump” effect … but they are nice and fuzzy and dry quicker than merino … and they are warmer when totally saturated

;)

 

[Christopher Palmer]

Your clothing system is fine.  I have the Piton hoody and a Nano Air jacket.  The only problem I have with the Piton is the hood is just about worthless if its raining hard enough since it is just fleece if your gonna use it as a shell.  And underneath the windpro hardface areas there is no brushed fleece to keep any moisture that makes it through off of your inner layers.  The Nano Air is my favorite midlayer right now.

[Ryan Jordan]

I wonder if there may even be room for down in the vest layer.

The chance that down will be used while hiking in a storm, with a fleece hoody like the Piton in the repertoire, should be nil. So it should be easy to keep that dry.

Which means that a down vest can be relegated to camp / sleep clothes. So if it gets damp, should be easy to dry overnight while wearing it inside a quilt.

Does anyone have a PhD WaferLite Vest? I think (to my knowledge) that’s pretty much the lightest vest out there. 3 oz! But my God, that’s a lotta $/oz!

[Ryan Jordan]

@bearbreeder wrote:

“when totally soaked there is no wicking anyways and a snugger fitting fleece will press against the body increasing the water contact on the skin/base”

VERY good observation. When I cut my teeth on how to do all this stuff, I did it in the Olympics (WA). Interestingly, we studied fleece garment fit carefully (this was the late 80s). Looser was *always* better, for the reasons you mention.

Now “performance” fleece has migrated to “athletic” fits. I wonder how much of this is marketing. Maybe stuff that fits tight to muscular dudes and thinner girls sells better.

My absolute favorite foul-weather winter outfit is a very thin merino t-shirt, a loose thermal pro fleece pullover, and a windshirt.

I really want to replicate this system for conditions near freezing in sustained wet weather, but at less weight than, say, an R3.

[Justin Baker]

I own a melanzana high loft hoodie. My medium is 12.5 ounces. It is very warm for it’s weight considering it’s a fleece. It’s 300 weight thermal pro and thermal pro is warmer for the weight, so its more like a 500 weight classic fleece???? Under a shell, its about as warm as an ultralight down jacket.

I bought it as a wet weather static insulation piece. It is far to warm for active use. I wanted something overkill I could throw on over wet clothes to keep me warm and to pull moisture off my base layer and mid layer while I took rest and meal breaks. My main insulation hoody gets wet but it’s ok because it is minimally effected by moisture, its not going into my sleeping bag, and if I have a chance to build a fire I can hit the reset button. It’s sort of a luxury item as it allows me to stop during the day when I could just hike all day and get into my bag. I don’t like being forced to march all day with no option of stopping until camp.

I have yet to use it for this purpose, but in the past I have carried excessive amounts of fleece top layers, the melazana is just a more weight efficient piece that serves the purpose.

Thermal pro is so warm for the weight and so good at insulating while wet, its a shame you cant find it in lighter variants that could replace a 100wt fleece for an active midlayer. I have flipped a packraft wearing it, it wasn’t that cold probably in the 50’s or so, but I didn’t even catch a chill and I run suuuper cold when inactive (floating). It is probably the best possible packrafting jacket if you are in cold water and don’t have dry suit. Like Eric says, wear it next to skin for best results. This hoody is a complete game changer for fleece insulation and at $99 its something you should have in your gear closet.

[James holden]

with a synh quilt you should be able to use a down vest fine ,,, ive used my EB downlight vest just fine in wet conditions for camp … in such a case DWR down probably helps

in fact a poofay vest is superior to a jacket in wet conditions .. when its cold and wet the last thing to dry out are the sleeves as they lack enough body heat to push out the moisture, not to mention they are often the first thing to get wet due to water ingress

if you do bring a thermo pro fleece .. you can wear the down jacket under the fleece (if its only damp not wet) to manage the moisture

however if you plan to use the vest on technical terrain/sections (moving slowly, belays/rappel, etc) then down wouldnt be the best choice if its wet

one note (for the benefit of others reading this) about drying stuff out is that youll need a SURPLUS of insulation/body heat … that is to say if your sleep system is rated just for 30F youll have a hard time drying stuff out around freezing, however if its rated to 20F then youll have better results … being cold doesnt generate enough heat

using hawt nalgenes will help raise the body temps to push out the  moisture … as well moving around in camp …

however if your using “dynamic rewarming” (see the navy seal article) all fleece/synth is probably a better way to go

;)

[Brad Rogers]

@Ryan and Eric

 

My bad, I thought Windpro fleece used a membrane to make it windproof.

 

@Ryan

 

That Thermal Pro fleece pullover sounds great.  We have a lack of simple, light, and affordable fleece garments.  Patagonia pieces are always so feature laden and thus heavy and the “Patagonia Tax” is excessive.  I buy their stuff on sale, as I think 50% off retail is about what it is worth.

 

@Justin

 

I have looked at the Melanzana quite a bit for my wife as she runs very cold.  I have been more interested in a light Thermal Pro vest (that is very hard to find) as I thought the 16oz would be too heavy.  The 12.5oz you have listed is much more reasonable to me.  How does the medium fit?  I am 6′ 175lbs with a longish torso.

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

What does one understand as ‘loose’ ?

[Justin Baker]

Brad, the melazana hoody fits nice and long. I’m 5’10, 155 pounds, long torso, and the medium fits well. It has a lot of stretch, I could fit it over a few layers easily, but it hugs my body nicely when wearing over just a t-shirt.

[James holden]

woubeir …

not snug light your typical grid fleece … a normal fit is fine … if needed there should be enough space to layer it over a light down poofay (MB exlight) for the moisture management reasons mentioned above

if you feel its snug … then when its wet itll push all that wetness back against yr base/skin

a fleece for wet weather should be fuzzy on the inside and fuffy (not too dense)

just remember fluffy like a bunny and fuzzy like a bear … and youll be fine

;)

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

Eric,

so loose as in form fitting and not as in ‘an L would fit wright so I took an XXL as I like my upperwear to fit very roomy’ ?

Oh, yes, before I forget, take a look at the Buffalo DP-system ?

[James holden]

just a standard (not snug) fit … no need to size up, however if one is in between sizes then perhaps go with the larger size

most “regular” and thermo pro (the ones i see) are sized normally anyways … its mostly the technical grid or other fancy fabric fleeces that are sized snug which is great for movement and wicking, but less good when totally soaked

for walking a plain jane 100 wt (200 wt if very cold and wet or static use) classic polartec brushed fleece is better than all the fanciest $$$$ technical snug garments in the world … unless yr hauling loads you arent going to be exerting enough technical fabrics to matter

i do believe thats what the great skurka recommends as well

only thermal pro is better …

;)

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

Yeah, DP is so 70s ;)

[Pete M]

Can any of you compare the Melanzana High Loft (Thermal Pro 300) to the new Patagonia R3 (High Loft) hoody? Price and weight are the differences that stand out, but how about performance and fit? Seems like the R3 fabric is now basically a higher loft version of the R1 grid fleece, rather than the fluffy/furry texture of the Thermal Pro used by Melanzana. Does the R3 fit closer than the Melanzana?

[BlackHatGuy]

“Yeah, DP is so 70s ;)”

I love Buffalo Systems clothing, but for cold weather, not wet weather. I use Buffalo Systems shirt and pants when winter backpacking when the temps are 20s and lower, and it works fantastically. I’ve never worn it in cold AND wet, so not sure how it would handle that.

[Daryl and Daryl]

My main piece of gear for cold wet weather is a used float coat. I say used because the new ones are too heavy. The old ones usually weigh about 1.5 lbs and are typically made of about 1/2″ of ensolite sandwiched between two layers of nylon.

The weight sounds heavy at first but keep in mind that it replaces a warm coat, rain coat and (at least part of) a sleeping pad. The closed cell foam doesn’t absorb much, if any, water so it’s still warm when wet. Also, you don’t have to carry a back-up warm coat like you might if you were concerned about your primary coat getting soaked and losing its insulating value.

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

I love Buffalo Systems clothing, but for cold weather, not wet weather. I use Buffalo Systems shirt and pants when winter backpacking when the temps are 20s and lower, and it works fantastically. I’ve never worn it in cold AND wet, so not sure how it would handle that.

I know people that have used it in wet weather and they say it works great. But I think also that those people have lost all sense of reality, because indeed I read lots where the maximum temperature in which it could be used was 30° or 40° and still the overenthusiastic users claim it’s perfect for use with temps as high as 60°.

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