Cat Hole Question

[jscott]

I may get some, erm, crap for saying this, but my feeling has been that, going well off trail and finding a spot where the soil can be dug 8 inches down, and then wetting the tp and poop and covering it again, is sufficient. Or, if a bolder field is available, pooping into a crevice might be an option, depending on water flow or its lack. After all, tp is a wood product that will biodegrade, and animals poop all the time in the woods. Pee is actually good for trees and underbrush. Yes, in certain circumstances, packing tp out is the right thing to do; or burning it in a fire circle. But where do you carry that soiled tp in your pack? It smells to high heaven and will attract critters. Putting it into a bear canister with food is a bridge too far for me.

[Sam Farrington]

Noted that most of the posts were about the west coast, with some mentions of Rocky.

At one time, the Wilderness Areas were governed by a branch of government different from the National Parks.  I could bring my pups with me in Wilderness Areas, but in Rocky, for example, they were strictly forbidden by the National Parks.  This worked out fine, because the Wilderness Areas were far more remote than the Parks that were were avoided like the plague because they were crowded, over regulated and disgusting.  Apparently, all this has changed; so will have to be much more careful in selecting Wilderness Areas, and call ahead about dogs and other restrictions.

Being strictly self-confined to the seldom used Wilderness Areas, there has never a problem like any of those discussed on this thread.  For example, during a southerly trek through the Never Summer Wilderness Area I saw no other people, nor any of their ‘signs’, and much of the time was walking in trailless terrain using the ‘handrail’ technique to keep my bearings.  Little did I know that I might be enjoying an experience that might soon become extinct.  But do understand the apparent need to impose greater restrictions.  Unfortunately, they don’t work very well.  Crowds are crowds and all that comes with them.  The good news is that there remain areas in the ‘great north woods’ of Maine and NH, for example, that are just as remote.  And hope that is still the case in the high country of Colorado; although no longer have the time to drive out there and back every year.  Am not even sure now of getting there at all, what with the bizarre climate changes.

Would only add that on a light diet it was seldom necessary to void, and great care was taken to insure that no one could ever be confronted with my leavings, except for an occasional food cache bearing a sign offering a hefty sum for which there were no takers.  Thankfully, bears and other animals cannot read.

[Daryl and Daryl]

“Putting it into a bear canister with food is a bridge too far for me.”

Thanks.  Gave me a good laugh.

[Jeff McWilliams]

jscott and carrying dirty TP:

1)  Use a back country bidet and soapy water to do 99% of the work, leaving only some “touching up” to be handled by TP.
2) Mylar ziploc bags are MUCH more odor proof than standard Glad/Ziploc brand food storage bags are. Use one of them to transport your TP.
3)  Put some bleach crystals or bleach powder into the mylar bag with the used TP.  It doesn’t take a lot.   1/8 to 1/4 teaspoon is sufficient.

I don’t think ANYONE recommends putting used TP in with your food storage.  I just took a 6-day alpinism/mountaineering class with American Alpine Institute.  We had to use Ursak kevlar food storage bags because of problems with mice on Mt Baker.  We also had to use WAG bags to carry out our human waste because there are just too many people on the mountain for cat holes to be viable.  The guide company’s issued Ursake have explicit instructions on them:  NO HUMAN WASTE.  Even in a double-bagged WAG bag, I would never put human waste or even used TP in with my food.

I don’t condone pooping in a crevice when crossing a boulder field.  I’d rather wait until I’m at treeline and can dig a cat hole, or be prepared to poop in a WAG bag.

[DWR D]

I don’t think ANYONE recommends putting used TP in with your food storage.

I have actually seen/read that recommendation by one of the park services… forget which… but have DEFINITELY see in…

[AK Granola]

I’ve seen it too. Also for women’s used products. No, just no. I have also seen someone recommending that you carry all your poop out – can you imagine carrying 10 days worth of poop? These are from people who sit on the couch, undoubtedly.

I actually really like the idea of not using a cathole if you’re far enough from a trail, far from a heavily used area. Let it rot just like the bear poop does, gone in a short time. But for most of us, we don’t go that far from areas where other people might find it, hence the cathole. It’s not for nature’s benefit, only for ours.

[Paul Wagner]

Most areas that require you to pack out poop are heavily traveled with limited ability for the natural resource to recover: Whitney, some canyons in the Southwest. I don’t think anyone plans (or is required) to pack out ten days’ worth.

 

And I wish there were areas that were so isolated that you could get away with making no effort at all, but if you’ve made it there, so have others. And so will others after you.

 

[Jeff McWilliams]

Yeah.  Most mountaineering destinations in the PNW require packing it out. I think there’s one camp well below snowline on Baker on the Coleman-Demming route that has a privy, but the camp sites closer to or above snowline do not.  My class included 5 days on Mt Baker and we were told to bring 6 WAG bags.  A previous participant suggested re-using each WAG bag one time to save space.  Now THAT is a bridge too far for me!

Looks like even on Denali things are changing.  https://www.nps.gov/dena/planyourvisit/cmc.htm  Haven’t been there, but my understanding is that it’s been common to hurl WAG bags into a deep crevasse called the poop crevasse but now more of an effort is being made to pack it all out.  https://www.nps.gov/articles/denali-human-waste.htm

 

[DWR D]

“I don’t think anyone plans (or is required) to pack out ten days’ worth.”

If they require it to be packed out, that does not mean only packing out the first five days of a 10 day trip; it means packing out all 10 days… at least I have never read or been told by a ranger not to worry about packing out the last 5 days of a 10 day hike…

 

“And I wish there were areas that were so isolated that you could get away with making no effort at all”

There are such areas…

“, but if you’ve made it there, so have others. And so will others after you.”

sure… but HOW MANY OTHERS??? Many places I visit only get one or two others a year… sometimes less… I feel no need to pack it out in those places… though I don’t leave T.P. anywhere…

 

[AK Granola]

The whole pack it out thing is one of the chief barriers to my agreeing to go on a river trip in Grand Canyon. Those people are always getting sick from sharing those nasty toilets. I’m sure it’s far better than letting people pollute the waterway and beaches. But, I don’t trust anyone to properly clean their hands. And clearly they don’t. Catholes seem downright civilized by comparison.

Back to the thread question – I just received my Bogler’s trowel on you all’s recommendation. I dug a hole in some compacted dirt in my garden – wow! so easy. Nice and sharp and cuts and digs well. Definitely an improvement on the Montbell, and lighter too. I’ll have to try it around some areas with more entrenched roots. However, it is sharp on the edges, so I’ll have to wrap some duct tape around the upper part of the handle.

[HkNewman]

Orange plastic

Good for visibility should a ranger check in areas trowels are required, but some rocky western soil types flat rejected mine.   I settled on the Vargo Ti Dig tool and it’s worked when needed.   The idea of having an area planned out when setting up camp is probably a good one.  Walking western trails, sometimes you run into somebody hiding behind a tree …

trail maintenance.. shovel

One of the bad things honestly is seeing rangers along the trail with military entrenching tool (foldable shovel) in hand.  Some rangers in Oregon would ask if you had a trowel, etc.. as car campers and dayhikers mostly left wastes for them to bury esp closer to trailhead parking.

From car campers and day hikers to weekenders and thru hikers, seems there’s more unburied wastes every year.  Sometimes it’s a necessity/emergency but, going uphill tomorrow to hike, .. reading “Far Out” notes (nav program) where an older woman just did her business near a spring in front of everyone.   The almost “real time” notes made it sound more malicious. It’s enough to eschew summer hiking for less crowded shoulder season hikes or take up bike-packing (one bikepacker said he just pedaled harder to ensure a restaurant meals every night, hiker/biker campground with shower about every PM, etc..).

[AK Granola]

Maybe I’m oblivious, but with literally hundreds of trail miles with pack on in the past few years in the lower 48 – JMT, TRT, part of CDT, some Sierra trails, Grand Canyon trails – I have yet to find unburied waste even once. I haven’t even dug someone else’s up, although I have observed likely spots and avoided them. I have seen some TP flowers, and litter, but nowhere near as much as I would expect given heavy use of these places. Loads of campsites, popular trails, and still I am just not seeing problems. Certainly not enough to do the “old man shakes fist” action.

I also trust FarOut comments as much as I trust Reddit, i.e., not at all. Maybe someone has a grudge against said pooping lady. Or hates “older” hikers (older meaning what exactly). So many fake or misleading statements in FarOut. I’ve seen fear mongering, incorrect locations marked for water, trail junctions and campsites, even developed campsites put in the wrong gps location (Glacier), hoaxes (a spider outbreak, lol), and just irrelevant info because the comments are old and conditions have changed. Social media can be helpful, and can also be absolute garbage. Amazing that people take medical advice from strangers online!

Bummer that rangers have to bury other people’s doodoo though. No one should have to do that. Privies needed in those areas. Designing for people means planning what you know they’ll do, and getting them to do what you need them to do, without them even knowing it. Otherwise, prepare to be frustrated. Shake fist!

[HkNewman]

I have yet to find unburied waste even once.

It’s out there though it’s rare in the SW/CA … but I’ve seen it mostly in the PNW where trail intersects highways.  Think there’s been some unprepared car campers (hanging out a night before getting a pricy summer hotel room in Bend, etc..).  The informal car camp before McKenzie pass reminded me of a malarial scene.   Maybe it’s been cleaned up.

Still similar reports from central WA will make me at least stop for some Aqua Mira.  With poo lady, it was multiple reports.   Doesn’t make that sun-exposed 1,700 more appealing.

[Jeff McWilliams]

JMT near MTR / Shooting Star Meadow:  About 20 TP flowers and a discarded tampon applicator.

JMT at Sallie Keyes Lakes:  poop under rock about six feet away from where we decided to cook our food.

Grand Teton National Park camped up on Death Canyon Shelf.  Two instances of poop under rock.  One was discovered 10 feet from the obvious, well used flat spot where we pitched our tent.  The other was a small tree-topped knoll just off-trail that looked like it could hold a small tent.

Banff National Park hiking from Moraine Lake up to Sentinel Pass:  discarded TP and poop under rock in Larch Valley.

And keep in mind that I’m not blessed with living anywhere near the mountains.  I live in Michigan and can afford just one big trip and a bunch of smaller weekend road trips each year.

[DWR D]

Gawd Jeff… you’re documenting what you left in all those instances ???

Oh… er… that’s what you found; no left???   :))))

[Jeff McWilliams]

DWR D – lol.  Maybe I just have a knack for finding them?  It’s not like I was looking for them.

I got certified as a LNT Trainer several years ago and I cover that topic when we hold our beginner backpacking workshops at our local outdoors club.  So maybe my “poop radar” is more sensitive than others, but I doubt it.

Kinda related to the topic at hand:  last week my friend and I were driving to the small climbing crag in Grand Ledge and decided to listen to one of the American Alpine Club podcasts.  It was the episode titled, “Climb: Your craziest climbing stories, reviewed” from six months ago.  About 10 minutes into the podcast, they start retelling, “almost shitting myself” stories where climbers CLEARLY had no time to dig a cat hole nor walk an appropriate distance away from a trail or crag.   I was horrified, especially since the AAC is supposed to be all about promoting ethics in climbing, etc.   I’m sure glad I’ve never had the misfortune of being anywhere near these climbers during or after these “shitty” incidents occurred.

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