Best Stove/fuel Choices

[Chuck C.]

I’m trying to figure which would be better at Philmont, a remote canister stove which uses Isobutane or a white gas stove? I know Philmont recommends white gas, and it is easy to get additional white gas on the trek, But I’ve heard that they are becoming more accepting of canister stoves.

If we are just talking about the stove itself,  canisters stoves would be much lighter. I have a DPower remote canister stove from Amazon that only weighs 5oz.  I just purchased a Whisperlite International that weighs 11oz. Seems like an easy choice on paper. In practice, it might not be as clear cut. It seems like the white gas stoves allow you to monitor your fuel usage. This, plus the fact that you can refill the fuel bottle means that you can potentially carry just what you need. Whereas with the canister, I’m not sure if you can get new canisters along the trek and I’m not sure if they let you throw away the used canisters. Plus, it is harder to tell how much you have left. This could result in us carrying a lot more than we need and possibly having to carry all of the empty cans.

It appears that we will have a Crew of 7 people in case group size is a factor in picking a stove.

If you have recent experience at Philmont, could you let me know your thoughts?  What worked and didn’t work on your trek. What would you do next time?

 

[ed dzierzak]

Well, since I managed to delete my extremely will thought out and insightful post ;) I’ll go with the shorter version…

Either type works well. The section in the Council and Unit Planning Guide provides guidance on shipping, etc. Also, on fuel resupply: “White gas and isobutene/propane fuel type canisters will be available at Camping Headquarters and Trading Post/Commissaries along your itinerary in the backcountry.”

We’ve use remote canister stoves on all our treks. We never worried about using a partial canister because if one ran out in mid-cook, it was easy enough to change canisters. Also, we carried the empties back to base. Yes, you could add them to the normal trash you’ll have and deposit at staffed camps.

If you use canisters, we used to check the advisors’ lounge before buying any. There were sometimes leftovers. They may have changed to location of the “leftovers”.

If you use white gas, bring a filter funnel. Better to be a bit picky on the refills than to have a stove clog up from dirt while on the trail.

And we ALWAYS carried two stoves whether we were a crew of 7 or 12. Backup is good!

[DAN-Y]

Get one these, has built in windscreen. Has positive shut-off valve. Simmers. Have one of the scouts as “designated” stove tender/carrier :-) Added feature, it’s quiet :-)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NICE-GLOYS-ORIGO-HEAT-PAL-MADE-IN-SWEDEN-COOKING-HEATING-ALCOHOL-STOVE-with-Box-/252325398748?hash=item3abfc408dc:g:6QMAAOSwyjBW7T~C

[David Thomas]

BRS-3000T upright canister stove.  $11-$17 on GearBest or on eBay out of Shanghai.  25 grams.  25 grams!  LESS THAN AN OUNCE.  Folds up to the volume of a, er, very large grape.  A plum.  Well, a pretty small plum.  It’s tiny.

Read an article on gauging canister fullness by floating it in water.  Or just play with them a while and you’ll get a feel for full versus nearly empty.

All the things you say about WG is true – you can vary your fuel load for the trip, but you have the choice or 100- 220- and 400-gram canisters, too.  What is insidious about WG is the amount of gas to prime it and that one, in practice, never turns it off while preparing meals because it is a bother to relight and sometimes a little tricky to relight a warm stove (cold you know, hot is easy, warm can be hard and a little exciting).  But canister stoves are so easy to relight that you boil water, turn it off, let the food soak, and reheat the meal before serving and that technique saves a lot of fuel.

In a larger group, you’d want two stoves anyway – “belt & suspenders” and “Be Prepared”.  WG and canister can make a good combo.  For long burn times and heating a lot of water, use the WG.  For something small, quick or a reheating, use the canister stove.

[Matt Dirksen]

I carried my Jetboil along with our trek back in 2014, so I could be enjoying coffee before the boys ever got the white gas stoves fully primed.

If it weren’t for the old-school stubbornness of our crew adviser, I would have recommended the boys use isobutane stoves in lieu of the Whisperlights. Faster, simpler, easier, arguably more efficient, etc…

Even though I have several white gas stoves, and have used them extensively over 30 years now, I pretty much only use my kerosene laced XGK for wintertime water boiling while the beautiful Svea’s stay pretty much on the sidelines, feeling sad and neglected.

If isobutane is a good option, I really don’t see any benefit to using white gas for trips like Philmont any more. It’s just antiquated stuff, imho.

[Bruce Tolley]

Isobutane, isobutane, isobutane!

Like David says above, you can use isobutane much more efficiently than white gas because you can light and shut off the stove just like natural gas at home. While Philmont has essentially banned plastic bag cooking because of all the waste it created, you can also increase efficiency by building some cozies and having your crew cook thier food using the cosy method. You will want to practice with your crew before arriving at Philmont with the pots you want to use. If you are not confident in your chosen method, the Ranger might tell your crew to take one of the VERY large and heavy 12 quart pots that take forever to heat the water because of the greater exterior surface area of the pot.  I think two three or two four liter pots provide more than enough water for a 12 person crew.

[Chuck C.]

Thanks Everyone! Sounds like the consensus is to go for canister stoves.

I put a heavy pot of water on my little DPower last night, and I have some doubts about it handling the rigors of Philmont (big pots, large food portions, and teen-aged boys). Any recommendations for a sturdy, but lightweight remote canister stove? Inexpensive would be great, too.

[Bob Moulder]

Primus Trail Classic, the ones they sell at WalMart or on Amazon for about $20-25… about 8 oz but with a big burner head and stout pot supports, and surprisingly good flame control.

[edit] Oops, sorry I overlooked the “remote” part. Hard to beat Kovea Spider for that, and it can be used with canister upright or, if it’s cold, inverted. Weighs about 6 oz.

[William Harmon]

Philmont Ranger from the 2015 and the upcoming 2016 season here. If you want to go light, as this forum is for, go with an isobutane stove. However, PLEASE go with a remote canister stove, rather than an upright canister stove. I was with a crew this past summer that was using upright canister stoves for all their cooking and it was INCREDIBLY worrisome to see an 8 quart pot (the largest size we use) balanced on such a relatively thin and tall support. This “sketchiness”, as I might refer to it, was made worse because the meal we were preparing (Zatarain’s Jambalaya) required simmering and stirring for a while. I won’t know if that meal is back this summer until I get down there but it was the only meal that required simmering.

You could try to alleviate this “sketchiness” by using a 4 quart pot to boil water to pour into the 8 quart pot, and doing so should actually speed up cook time if you use stoves to bowl water simultaneously. However it would be easier to just carry 2 remote canister stoves, as even a 4 quart pot might be “sketchy” to some. We do want you to use the Crew Method for cooking so the cozies shouldn’t be brought and used except to keep food warm. The cozies especially shouldn’t be used with freezer bags as that would generate the same amount, or more, of trash than just lining a pot with a bag, as you would now have up to 12 bags per meal per crew compared to only 1 bag per meal per crew. This would leave a dirty pot to clean up however scouts tend to be hungry and you generally should have no problem finding a scout to scrape the pot clean. Of course this post isn’t about using turkey bags or cleaning pots so I’ll stop there.

In regards to the use of Jetboils. I highly encourage you take 1 per crew if you have advisors, or participants, that regularly drink hot drinks (coffee, tea, hot chocolate, apple cider) in the morning. They are incredibly fast and efficient at providing smaller quantities of water and so they work incredibly well for making hot drinks. This may sound a little unconventional and certain Rangers may not care for it but the combined use of an 8 quart pot, 4 quart pot, and 3-4 Jetboils can actually work out really well. I was a replacement advisor for a crew when one of their advisors unfortunately had to leave, though not from an injury or on-trail issue, and their sister crew followed this style of cooking. They were able to quickly and efficiently boil water in the Jetboils and then transfer that water to the 8 quart pot to still follow the Crew Method of cooking. They also carried the 4 quart pot to use for their dishes, which require two pots with one being a wash and one being a rinse pot. This method is up to each of your crews as to whether it would be beneficial or not. It would require more stoves than just the 2 remote canister stoves so you may be carrying more weight however your meals could be cooked much more quickly and you may save some fuel overall. If your crew has only about 8 members then, depending on your Ranger, you might be able to take a 6 quart pot instead of the conventional 8 quart pot. I’ve let crews use 6 quart pots before and we’re told we can give them out if it looks like the crew is small enough that an 8 quart pot is simply too big to be necessary. That being said, the 6 quarts will really only be given if the crew size is small enough to warrant it.

I would like to add that these opinions are my own and are based on the Philmont policies however they are neither approved nor authorized by Philmont Scout Ranch and/or the Boy Scouts of Amerca

[Nate Ward]

Have things changed since 2010?  In 2010 you had to carry out your used canisters…you could not include them in your backcountry trash.

[david richardson]

we had no problem with disposal, but had to be punctured in 2012, 2014. carred little jetboil cannister puncture tool.

[ed dzierzak]

@ DanY It’s not obvious that the stove you picture has an on/off valve – “Open flame stoves without a shutoff valve like BioLite stoves or alcohol stoves are not allowed at Philmont for safety reasons and wildfire risk.” – Council and Unit Planning Guide.

In addition, alcohol is NOT available at Philmont – white gas or canisters only.

+1 on the “stove on top of canister”. Those are barely stable when used on solo trips. Trying to balance an 8 qt pot on one is asking for disaster.

@David Thomas BRS-3000T upright canister stove is a canister top stove

@Bob Moulder Primus Trail Classic is a canister top stove

Rant on – Having done 7 treks, I really believe in the “Philmont Procedures”. Given the range of abilities the Rangers have to deal with during a season, they do a great job. Many of the procedures Philmont employs will not be what we may do on our own trips. However, they are in place to provide a safe, fun adventure for the majority.
I’m sure that William has had to deal with “know-it-all” adults and youth. I’d like to thank him and all Rangers who work hard to ensure we all have a great time.
Rant off!

William – BTW our crew is 613-R1. It would be great to meet you!

[George F]

If you go canister I think the remote is a good idea for more stability. For something that is very affordable Fire Maple has some options like the Fms-105 for 19.99 on Amazon. You will be using bigger pots, look for bigger burner heads, some of the lighter options have pretty small burners.

[Jamie Barnes]

http://www.optimusstoves.com/us/us/9-8018505-optimus-vega

This is what our crew is planning on using for our 2017 trek. The actual stove itself hasn’t been tested at Philmont but I’ve talked to some other advisors and they’ve used this same model on multiple treks and it works well. I’ve tested it at home with a 6 qt pot and the pot is very stable. You can turn it upside down in four season mode for faster boil times. I did some tests a few weeks ago and turning it upside down not only boiled six cups of water much more quickly but actually used less fuel. A little pricey but lightweight, remote canister and stable pot holder.

Jamie.

[Bruce Tolley]

@ William

The BSA defines patrol method as “Working together as a team, <b>patrol</b> members share the responsibility for the <b>patrol’s</b> success.” So it is not clear to me why Philmont would judge a cozy method as not consistent with a “crew method” if the food were split up into bowls and the bowels were in cozies and then the cook boiled the water in smaller pots and distributed into the bowels. I could argue that using cozies aligns with the Scout Law, a Scout is Thrifty. :-)) You can also bring 2 four liter pots each filled with 3 liters to a boil in less time than one 8 liter pot with 6 liters of water. And the colder the weather is, the longer it takes the bigger pot to heat the same amount of water.

 

[William Harmon]

@Bruce

The idea why we don’t support using cozies is because we see it as not working as a team. Yes you have a cook boiling water and then you’ll have a dishwasher washing out the bowls afterwards but it’s more individual because each person determines how their food ends up. What I mean by this is that if you use a cozy each person will put the dry meal in their bowl and cozy and then add water to how they want it. It’s a nice idea if someone likes a little more crunch or someone prefers more of a gruel consistency however at that point the group is no longer working together. Is it no longer up to the group to share the responsibility for the group’s success, instead it is up to each individual to determine their own success.

As each cook takes a turn with the regular Philmont Patrol Method they must be fully aware of how much water they’re using and that they ultimately determine what the meal turns out like. Because each scout takes a turn cooking they share the responsibility of cooking through the trials and errors of making mistakes while cooking. But if the cook is only boiling water then they don’t have to be as concerned with the group as with cooking it all in one pot.

I think what you’re getting at is more of boiling water in more, smaller pots rather than one large one. As I have already stated in my earlier post, I believe using this method would prove to be much more efficient in terms of time (though I’m unsure about fuel costs). If you carry the 2 stoves like normal and boil water in two 4 quart pots and then dump that water into an 8 quart pot you would save some time by using these smaller pots. Or if you’d rather not carry two 4 quarts and an 8 quart pot you could get either an 8 and 6 or 8 and 4 quart pots and just boil smaller amounts of water in them. By using either an 8 and 6 or 8 and 4 quart pot you would still be able to boil water using two stoves at the same time. A risk with this method is that you could over-water your food by adding it to one of the pots with water in it. However, by splitting the water up between the two pots you would significantly reduce this risk because you wouldn’t be adding all of the food to 6 quarts of water, rather all of the food to about 3 quarts of water and then adding more as needed.

[Edgar M]

William,

Thanks for contributing to this thread from the Ranger point of view.  In 2013, we used both the common pot and the Cozy method.  Our cozies were cut from windshield reflectors and the bowls were 3 cup Rubbermaid Takealongs with Snap on lids.  The bowls, cozies and spoons were carried as group gear, as opposed to individually.  Without being too argumentative, I believe the way we used the bowls/cozies fits the spirit of the Philmont Patrol Method, but with easier clean up.

All the dinners packets are given to the cooks.  The cooks boil the water and sterilize the bowls and spoons.  The cooks also divide the dry dinner packets between the bowls (1 packet per two bowls) and then measure the boiled  water out to the bowls, put the lids on and cover with the cozies.  Per your statement, the cooks still retain responsibility for knowing how much water they use and for the final outcome of the meal.  After the meal is eaten, cleanup is made much easier if a little warm water is swirled around in the bowl and then consumed.  As an added bonus to this method, there tends to be a lot less food particles (actually none, if done right) that need to be placed in the Yum Yum bag.

There are limitations to the above method.  First, as with above mentioned Jambalaya, if the meal needs simmering, you have to use the pot.  Second, if you have scouts with widely different appetites, it becomes problematic to adjust quantities between the bowls prior to adding water and still get the flavor and texture right. The second can be resolved by just spooning food from one bowl to another prior to eating.

We will practice both methods prior to arriving at Philmont and will not argue with our Ranger while he/she is with us.  After that, it is up to the scouts as to which method they use.

 

P.S. Back to the original topic, in 2013, we used a remote canister stove (I think a Primus), with a fairly wide base.  It was still a little unstable in my opinion.  We will use it again this time, but I intend to fabricate a pot stand like the one described in the “skills” tab on BPL.  We will bring a 8qt and 4qt pot and will have my SolTi pot with the Ruta Locura Ti stove kit for coffe/hot chocolate/cider

[Chuck C.]

The Optimus Vega stove looks great, but the price of the FMS-105 looks hard to beat. Does anyone know how stable the FMS-105 would be with Philmont sized pot of water on it? It appears to have folding legs similar to my DPower.  On my DPower, the rivets that allow the legs to hing have a sloppy fit, which makes the legs seem spindly.   Fine for small pots and normal backpacking trips, but a bit risky at Phil using their cooking techniques.

From looking at the pictures, the non-folding legs of the Kovea Spider looks more suitable to Phil sized pots.  It is double the price of the FMS-105, but fairly reasonable if it is quality stove. If it is a cheap Chinese product like the DPower, with barely adequate fit and finish, then it might be overpriced at $50. Anyone have any hands-on experience with the Kovea Spider?

[Bob Moulder]

Chuck, I haven’t used the FMS-105 but I can tell you the Kovea is pretty sturdy. Just have to take care with the fuel line, especially the flange where it joins the fuel valve/canister attachment assembly. I haven’t used mine nearly enough to see any problems, but this has been mentioned as an issue by somebody else here on BPL.

One BIG difference between these stoves is that the Kovea Spider can be used with canister either upright or inverted (liquid feed, better for colder weather) whereas the FMS-105 should NEVER be used inverted because it does not have a fuel pre-heat tube which runs through the burner flame and turns the liquid into a vapor before it reaches the fuel jet. Trying to run the FMS inverted could be DISASTROUS.

Photos below showing the Kovea Spider with the red oval highlighting the fuel vaporization tube, which the FMS does not have:

[DAN-Y]

For maximum safety, the scouting organizations should consider using alcohol stoves such as the ones shown below. They have positive shut of valves controlled by knob on front of stove.

Origo 3000 & 1500 Alcohol Stoves
Free-Standing Single- & Double-Burner Stoves

http://www2.dometic.com/d23b666d-f37b-47f8-9cdd-c9ae628dee8e.fodoc

 

Some of you may have seen this video. Shows how scouts can be in danger with canisters. Good video to show adult leaders ;-)

Lighting Two Stoves with One Flame

 

 

[William Harmon]

@edgarm

I know this isn’t the intended purpose of this thread and if you or anyone else would like to discuss the cozy method, or any other cooking method, more I would be more than willy to discuss it on a new thread.

The cozy method you’re proposing and have used does fit the Patrol Method as the cooks are still fully doing their intended jobs and so the group is still able to share the responsibility for the group’s success. However, it seems to me that you’re mostly advocating the cozy method as a way to avoid leftover food particles to put in the Yum-Yum Bag. Based off your description this is accomplished through Human Sumping, or drinking the remaining food particles in bowls to eliminate waste. I am not opposed to Human Sumping in any way and regularly do it on my backpacking trips, especially on my NOLS trip. It is a great way to eliminate leftover food waste without having to use a sump or anything similar.

I don’t support the cozy method for this desired result because your crew will be carrying an extra item, the cozy, which will add some weight as well as just extra items to keep track of. You’ll help alleviate this problem by keeping the cozies together with the bowls and spoons as crew gear however it’s still added weight.

Rather than carry those extra items, you could use the One Pot cooking method and Human Sump at the end of the meal. Scouts tend to be hungry so it shouldn’t be difficult to find a scout willing to scrape the pot clean and then to Human Sump the pot. As a Ranger I’ve usually found at least a few individuals in each crew that aren’t able or willing to Human Sump their food, usually due to the particles (I do wonder if calling it Human Sumping affects how people perceive it). So if your entire crew is Human Sumping but one or two scouts don’t want to, then what do you do? Do you force them to drink it? I’ve seen scouts try Human Sumping and come close to vomiting, something that would be much more difficult to put in a Yum-Yum Bag than a few food particles. I would question how sanitary it is if crew members were to Human Sump the food particles from another crew member’s bowl or even to pour out the contents into their bowl. So by using one pot and having only one individual Human Sump it, you avoid the risk of someone not wanting to Human Sump.

The One Pot method is, in my opinion, simply easier as well. You don’t have to worry about dividing dry food evenly amongst the bowls, rather you just put it all in one pot and then give the food out a scoopful or two at a time. The One Pot method also means you don’t have to know which bowl belongs to which person so they can receive more or less food because they have a specific appetite. These appetites could also change from day to day so it would require good communication during meal prep to get the amounts right. I’ve also seen scouts who have eyes vastly bigger than their stomachs so they take too much and can’t eat it all. This is easily remedied by reserving that extra food to whoever wants it, however what if everyone says they want a larger portion? With the One Pot method everyone gets an equal amount at the beginning and then it continues to be an equal amount for those that want more.

By dividing the food before it is hydrated you would also run a greater risk of having larger amounts of leftovers. The meal with separate packages of Refried Beans and Southwest-Style Rice (or a similar name) is infamous for being too much food. When combined it makes for a fairly dense bean and rice meal that many crews can’t finish. By dividing the food before hydrating it I assume you would be using all of the food packages. If you do that with this meal or a few others you could end up with a lot of extra cooked food to go in the Yum-Yum Bag which will weigh more than just carrying the extra dry packages. Whereas, if you cook the food in a single pot you could start off with a few food packages and add more as it is needed by the crew. You can do the same thing with the cozy method however seeing the dry food in each bowl the crew might be more likely to want all of the food available in their bowls as some crew member may not like seeing the smaller amount of food compared to the size of their bowl.

I appreciate that you will have the ability to perform the One Pot cooking method with your Ranger and will let your scouts decide which method to use.

[Bob Moulder]

Some of you may have seen this video. Shows how scouts can be in danger with canisters. Good video to show adult leaders ;-)

Dan those are over-primed  WG stoves. :^)

Yep, not a super bright idea to have a race with these!

[DAN-Y]

Hi Bob, ed dzierzak said: In addition, alcohol is NOT available at Philmont – white gas or canisters only.

That made me think of the Video :-)  Quite interesting that video is. Makes me think of how some leaders need to be educated to the hazards of “fire games”

[DAN-Y]

Ed, here are a couple of photos of the shut off valve that is on the 1st link I gave on ebay:

[DAN-Y]

Look at the size of pot this crew is hefting to feed 7 hungry troopers. Need a good Origo stove to get the job done in reasonable time ;-)

 

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