Are Sierra Walk Up Permits Still Free ?

[Art …]

I just spent $52 for a Sierra permit reservation for three.

feels like highway robbery just to walk on public land.

are walk up permits still free for entire Sierra ?

[Alex Wallace]

No, not the entire Sierra. Walk-up permits are still free for Sierra NF, Inyo NF, and Yosemite NP, but I know SEKI and Desolation Wilderness will cost you. It’s worth noting that most of the costs are associated with reservation & processing fees, not the permit.

The Desolation Wilderness (Eldorado NF) page refers to the ’05 Recreation Enhancement Act as the reason. I’m not sure if that’s the authority for other areas though.

According to the USDA Forest Service:

“The majority of the recreation fees collected stay on the forest and go right back into operating, maintaining and improving the recreational opportunities visitors use and value the most—campgrounds, developed day use sites, boat ramps, trails, rental cabins and lookouts, and much more. Funds are also used to provide enhanced services such as interpretive programs, visitor information, and transportation systems.” (accomplishments listed here with video)

Where are you going and for how long?

[Art …]

we will be doing an 8 day trek of the newish,

Southern Sierra High Route (a thread on BPL somewhere discusses it).

so maybe the Whitney Zone costs extra ?

or going cross country costs extra ?

[Billy Ray]

xc does not cost extra

Whitney Zone will be very hard to get a permit

But you should REALLY ask your question of the Park Service for your entry point.

They are the final, definitive, last word. Advice you get here could be from last year. Things change.

billy

[Ralph Burgess]

The Grand Canyon is now $8 per person per night, plus $10 per booking.   And it’s a complete mess – rocks, rubble & dust everywhere, and the air conditioning seems to be broken.

[Aaron D]

@ralphbge Does it include a complimentary continental breakfast?

[Art …]

Billy Ray – we already have the permit reservation, that’s what started this thread, the shock of how much it cost.

we’re starting out of South Lake, just going cross country thru the Whitney zone to Cottonwood finish.

[Pedestrian]

I don’t know why you were charged $52 – it should be $51 for your planned permit request.

For Inyo NF/SEKI back country permits:

Back country permit reservation $15 per head (for visiting Mt Whitney Zone) + $6 reservation fee per reservation (not per permit) charged by recreation.gov

A back country permit reservation not visiting Mt Whitney Zone is $5 per head in advance + $ 6 reservation fee

And a walk up permit not visiting Mt Whitney Zone is $0.

This has been in effect now for at least the past 10 years except that recreation.gov started handling reservations around 6 years back I think.

[Billy Ray]

“I just spent $52 for a Sierra permit reservation for three. feels like highway robbery just to walk on public land.”

52 /3 =  $17.33 each

I think it’s all in how you look at it. It’s not ‘just to walk on public land’… rather, it’s to fund the care of the park so it doesn’t get ruined. All parks, buildings, etc require care and maintenance.

Gee… I would gladly pay double or triple. Sometimes I donate more as I see the prices they charge as being very low. I guess it’s all in how you look at it.

billy

[Art …]

you guys are correct, it was $51 (I misspoke).

thanks for the break down, so the major expense was the Whitney Zone reservation.

how much to visit Whitney Zone as a walk up ?

and its not that I’m complaining about giving some $$ to benefit the land. my complaint is all the extra cost to do the reservation versus a walk up. it just seems like yet another example of money talks in our society, those with extra funds in their wallet can always pay extra to make sure they get what they want.

[Billy Ray]

“it just seems like yet another example of money talks in our society, those with extra funds in their wallet can always pay extra to make sure they get what they want.”

I believe that is called capitalism, eh?

No matter what the system or charges or policies, there will always be something to complain about… and I think that says more about human nature than whatever the details of what it is we are complaining about.

[Lori P]

Well, considering the only way that you get trail maintenance done is to have volunteer organizations do it (I belong to several) I’d say the money the feds send along to the national forest is pretty darn minimal. They also have precious little money to police places.

that extra fee for Whitney is I think a direct reflection of the trouble that “bucket list” place causes — the WAG bags are another. A holy mutha crapton of the SAR activity in Inyo is there (that all comes out of county, btw, nothing to do with NF, and on the park side of the boundary it comes from SEKI), a whole lot of impact happens (WAG bags are only helping if people use them), and a gazillion issues with bears and other wildlife all add up to a lot of focus on that single zone.

Permit systems are a huge hassle for the rangers. That fee offsets the hours they have to devote to it, instead of all the other tasks they have on their plate. But without them the wilderness would be completely trashed. It’s not about money talks – it’s about throttling back the hordes of people who would otherwise trample the place into oblivion, because all one has to do to see the damage unchecked hordes of people can do is visit some hot spring in a wilderness area that has no permits at all… I’ve been in places that are popular and without permit systems, I don’t go back to them. I would hate to see that happen in the Sierra high country so if I have to navigate permit systems and pay a little out of pocket, I don’t mind that one tiny bit. I get to go back and NOT see 50 people camping on the edge of the lake, washing their chili into the water I was hoping to fish in, scaring away all the animals and rearranging all the rocks, and then another 50 up the hill from them, and another 50 behind the hill…

Go to Jennie Lake over the Fourth of July. You’ll see crowds that turn you off on places without quota systems. No permit needed there, and the lake is surrounded on summer weekends with people who missed the permits for the places in the park that are one night out.

[Art …]

but my main question in starting this thread is :

are reservations and walk ups charged the same fees (aside from the $6).

and if not why not.

[Pedestrian]

Thank you Lori for a great post!

I personally have a lot of respect for the USFS employees who continue to do an awesome job while their budgets have been slashed to the bone these past few decades.

[Pedestrian]

“are reservations and walk ups charged the same fees (aside from the $6).”

To answer your previous question first: the one time I was able to get a Whitney Zone walk-up permit, it was free. But there was a lottery for the limited number of slots available and we got lucky. It was for a day hike of Whitney 3-4 years back.

Also, before recreation.gov got involved, you called or faxed or mailed a permit reservation request. They charged $5 per (non-Whitney) reservation.

Technically you’re not issued a permit when you reserve in advance; it’s a reservation for a permit. The permit is issued in person when you show up to pick it up with the reservation you made.

As Lori suggests above it costs Inyo NF some time/money to administer the permit system. Hence the fee.

If you walk up you’re not subject to the administration fee as it probably doesn’t cost them much to “issue a permit”. The ranger is already manning a desk and taking other requests for help/info besides handling the permit requests.

But what do I know? The above is pure speculation. You want an answer, call Inyo NF and they’ll tell you. When you do find out, please post here ;).

[Billy Ray]

Maybe we should start a petition to get the park service to charge for walk up permits… I’m all for it.

billy

[Ralph Burgess]

Billy, all capitalist societies fund some range of public services entirely or primarily from taxation, making them either free or heavily subsidized at the point of use.  Of course, the appropriate range and extent of such services is hotly debated, and we don’t what to start a more general political discussion of that here.

I think Art is advocating the idea (as would I) that “walking on public lands” should fall under this category – funded primarily by taxation, not at the point of use, in order that the entire population, regardless of wealth, has equal access.

In practice, I do think that for reservations a small nonrefundable fixed charge, that pretty much anyone can afford, is often a good idea.   If it’s completely free, it encourages people to book everything up months in advance even if they don’t have firm plans to use the reservation.   Of course, in some cases the demand is so high that this doesn’t work – a wealthier person will simply make a bunch of bookings anyway “just in case” and be unconcerned about writing off the booking fee.   Hence, ballots.  But I don’t think the rationale for such fees should be to balance them against the cost of maintaining public lands – I think that should come from taxation.   The primary motivation should be equal and fair access for all.

 

 

 

[Jake J]

we’re starting out of South Lake, just going cross country thru the Whitney zone to Cottonwood finish.

FWIW, unless you are going into the “Whitney Zone” you don’t need the expense or hassle of the extra pass. If you want to get technical Mt Whitney isn’t even in the “Whitney Zone”. Mt Whitney is fully within NPS boundaries, whereas the “Whitney Zone” is fully within Inyo NF boundaries.

For instance – You could get a free walk up permit for Trail Pass out of Horseshoe Meadows, hike up and summit Whitney via PCT/JMT through Crabtree Meadows and either back out the way you came or continue up the PCT and exit via Shepherd Pass. In this instance no “Whitney Zone” endorsement is necessary since you wouldn’t be entering the “Whitney Zone”

[Art …]

Jake – I’m not sure if what you are saying is technically correct or not.

but its clearly not correct in the spirit of the restrictions that surround Whitney.

FWIW – yes we are travelling thru the Whitney Zone cross country, up the mountaineers route to the summit, and on to Cottonwood.

I’m not trying to get out of paying a special Whitney fee, I’m just wondering if there is a two tier system going on.

… and yes Ralph, above, pretty much voiced what I’m talking about.

[Billy Ray]

“I’m not trying to get out of paying a special Whitney fee, I’m just wondering if there is a two tier system going on.”

I bet this has all been hashed out at public hearings many many many times. And I bet they have some rational for it being the way it is now. All this stuff goes through public hearings and I bet all that has been mentioned here on this thread has been brought up… and much more…

billy

[Art …]

Billy Ray – so you’re saying this thread fits right in as a typical BPL thread.

thanks :-)

[Billy Ray]

Indeed. How could it be otherwise?    :)

billy

[Billy Ray]

As a final (?) note, I have always thought it odd that they don’t charge for walk up permits. Would be interested to know the logic or politics behind that policy.

billy

[Justin Baker]

It should also be noted that national parks have entrance fees if you drive in. You don’t have to pay if you enter the national park another way, like taking a bus or walking in from national forest land.

[Jake J]

Justin – As far as NPS visitor fees go, that is not the case. I pulled the below text directly from the SEKI page about fees:

https://www.nps.gov/seki/planyourvisit/fees.htm

$15 Individual Entry Pass – valid 1 through 7 days
Per person fee for a visitor traveling on foot, bicycle, or for individuals traveling together in a vehicle as a non-commercial, organized group. Non-transferable. Valid for Sequoia & Kings Canyon National Parks and the Hume Lake District of Sequoia National Forest / Giant Sequoia National Monument.

Now where would one pay this fee if you are entering in the back country away from entrance stations? No clue.. I always purchase a national parks pass so to me personally it’s a moot point. I’ve never been asked if I paid my entrance fee by a Ranger when in the back country, only asked on occasion to produce my wilderness permit..

[Author]

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