A look at 3 different materials through a microscope.

[Derrek L]

Attached are pictures I took through my son’s microscope of three different materials. One is among the softest I have ever felt. Another is crazy itchy. The third is slightly itchy.

I am in search of wool that is not itchy to me. Most of it feels like sand paper. Sometimes even the same material and weight will have one feel like sandpaper and another feel ok.

My question is why?

Can anyone else see any indications as to which is which?

I wish I did this with every item I have received and subsequently returned. So much opportunity for data was lost.

My goal here is low odor. Poly smells. Yuck. I have some voormi coming in. And power wool.

Thoughts? Comments? Solution to all my wool problems? Anything else I should try?

[Jerry Adams]

Too bad you can’t see it at an angle.  So you can see how fibers stick out out of the fabric

[Derrek L]

Never say never. I might be able to rig something up. Not sure I can manage focus distance though.

[Derrek L]

The simplest way to do this is to fold the fabric over and put the edge in view skipping the slides. I just did this with two of the fabrics. I didn’t see an abundance of difference in the straggler threads coming off the fold between two of the materials. One of these is 145 g/m2 and the other is 185 g/m2. I am wondering if the extra space is the biggest contributor. It’s literally a lower density. Which will certainly reduce the concentration of straggler threads. So, lighter more airy weaves maybe?

The problem with that is I tried two other 145/150 g/m2 fabrics. Firstlite wick and kuiu ultra merino 145 which were both itchy like the heavier fabric above. But the less itchy one is 145. I don’t know if there was a different weave, but given they are so similar in fabric weight, it can’t be much different in terms of density. I wish I had thought to do this on those materials.

Also, the firstlite is a blended fabric of 65% merino, 33% nylon and 2% spandex. And still itchy. (not nuyarn though). I have had blends of 60% lyocell / 40% wool be itchy (icebreaker cool-lite).

Straight out of box, I could wear the arcteryx ionia hoody without driving myself crazy. But it *is* constantly present. Still not as good as the better one of these.

What it’s looking like to me is a combination of getting low enough micron, and then *some* other attribute I have yet to identify. Maybe this wuru just happened to start a bit softer and running any of the better ones through the treatment process would result in this?

Gonna keep exploring.

[Jerry Adams]

I like how you’re figuring this out

It seems like it would be itchy if there were stiff fibers sticking out.  That would poke you like little needles.

But I know nothing (in my Sargeant Schultz voice)

[Derrek L]

Yep. just ordered the next wave of experiments based on this info. Interestingly, I have never tried a 100% merino product. It’s all been corespun, nuyarn, blended, 37.5, spandex, whatever else. So I have some 16.5 micron coming. It would be pretty funny if it was everything else, not the merino that was causing the issue. And also some alternates for lightweight options testing the theory that lighter/less dense might be better.

I had no idea what I was getting into when I started this. It’s a rabbit hole.

[Terran Terran]

I have the Brynje wool mesh top. I feel the loose weave makes it itchier. It doesn’t glide on the skin. I wear it over an AD90 layer. The AD is synthetic, but I don’t believe it stinks (or not as bad) as it doesn’t hold the sweat like other fabrics. Together, they feel like a really nice sweater.
Bison wool is softer. The price is high. I do wear the socks. Alpaca wool, after washing a few times, still has a bit of an itch, not near as bad as sheep wool.

[Derrek L]

You wear Brynje over Alpha Direct? The primary reason AD isn’t on the table is the rest of the practicality of it. Airmesh I can justify from an appearance and practicality view point. AD I can’t with any product I have seen so far. However, AD beat Airmesh for straight up fabric comfort next to skin. An AD that is mesh on one side (like the airmesh) would probably do very well for me. Is that why you put brnje *over* AD?

I didn’t use any of them sufficiently to test odor properties due to respecting return policies. I was only testing for comfort. Knowing what I know now, I probably would have kept the airmesh (especially for the price I paid) given the balance of comfort, practicality and performance. I just didn’t know how good it was then.

I am still hoping for a lightweight base layer that can stand by itself in the warmer months. I don’t feel like Airmesh or AD can really do that. (airmesh more because even in good weather, I suspect it needs a shell) But wool and blend wool can while not making me look like a stuffed kitten.

One of the things I love about this one piece of wool I can wear is I was able to just pull my jeans over and go out the door after a workout. Every sythetic (even rho lt though much less so with that one) feels like it needs to be peeled off my body. Even if they don’t smell, they don’t *feel* good at that point.

[Jerry Adams]

I wear a supplex nylon shirt.

It doesn’t itch.  It doesn’t smell a lot.  It performs well if it gets wet.  If it’s warm I can wear just the supplex shirt which protects from bugs and sun.  It absorbs body oils so they don’t get into my down vest or WPB jacket.

[Derrek L]

Where do I get such a shirt? I see lots of supplex fabrics but very few products made out of it. One was a camo hunting shirt. Not gonna happen for me. ;P

[Jerry Adams]

I made mine,  Learn to sew?

I think you could just go to REI or wherever and look at nylon shirts that are tight weave.  Maybe advertise sun and bug resistance.

Like https://www.rei.com/product/193091/rei-co-op-sahara-solid-long-sleeve-shirt-mens

It says it’s sun resistant but doesn’t mention bugs.  I think if it’s tight enough weave to be sun resistant, it’ll be bug resistant

[Derrek L]

Honestly, I have been thinking about trying to make some clothes. But I also don’t need a millionth hobby. I would probably try and make something like a lightweight brynje arctic with inside net and external wool or even power wool. But, I think the vormi is going to be pretty close to that. So, hopefully completely unnecessary.

I believe I have tried that shirt on in REI recently. If it is the shirt I am thinking of it is very much a nylon fabric I don’t like. Next time I am in there, I will explicitly grab this and check it out just in case it wasn’t that.

I actually just abandoned the search for running tights because most were nylon and felt pretty obnoxious to me. It is possibly that it is more the high quantity of spandex. These items tend to have 22-32% spandex in them. (Janji trail tights, patagonia mission peak… etc). The UA heat gear (poly/spandex) are ok, but tend to have that need to peel off the body right after a workout otherwise very functional, outside of potential odor issues. That need to peel off could be a result of the spandex content again. The all around winner (until this wuru wool that I am wearing right now) is arcteryx rho lt bottoms. The wuru is completely viable for all day wear even after a workout.

It sucks to have hyper sensitive skin. I do love modal though. Most of my long/short/hoody sleeve tee shirts are modal. They are amazing. Super cozy. Not great for sweat. When you take cotton off after sweating even a little bit, and put it back on, you can feel the wet sweat spots. That can happen with modal as well, just not as prevalent and *will* dissipate given a bit of drying time.

That said, I think my modal hoody would work phenomenally over something like the voormi. It won’t have that pull and dry capability like gridded fleece, but is likely just fine for moderate activity. And it just doesn’t smell. Like ever. Magic.

[Terran Terran]

I find mesh over AD does feel better against the skin. Especially with the wool mesh. The AD underneath also adds loft and I do feel it’s slightly warmer while still preforming the same function. I also have a pair of alpaca leggings that I wear under the mesh, partly due to sizing. I find the alpaca less itchy than merino. Especially after washing. I can tolerate it on the legs. Very soft. If I wear cotton, which I rarely do anymore, I’ll take 2 shirts so one can be drying.

[Derrek L]

I tried arms of andes (and even treated it) and it still drove me bat crap crazy.

For the record, I now have voormi tech long sleeve and bottoms as well as some power wool. And I was surprised by both of them.

Voormi was a surprise in the sense that is is way more itchy than I was expecting and power wool in that it was way less itchy. The voormi shirt was much better than the pants. Unfortunately the shirt was also way to big. I need to go at least one size down, maybe two if I want an NTS fit. The shirt is probably doable from a comfort perspective. I put both under the microscope and you can plainly see that the stray wool from the wool side of the material still shows up on the poly side. All the poly is white while the wool is the exterior color(s).

I would use power wool as a mid layer in a heartbeat. It is awesome. If I can adapt to the NTS feel, *and* it’s not too warm, which it might be, it would probably be my favorite layer. I am pretty sure the itch is coming from the grid more so than the wool. Under the microscope the wool is fuzzy everywhere, but the fibers seem to be universally smaller micron by a significant amount.

I would love to find some lighter weight power wool if I can. I am relatively sure this is style 60005 as found on some fabric sites. If I can find a crew using a silkweight power wool, that might just be the base layer for me.

Still have some other nuyarn options coming in to see if I can find something as good as the wuru bottoms.

[Derrek L]

Anyone have experience with the mammut trift?

I may have found my primary base layer. Mammut Trift ( top: 59% Polyamide, 39% Wool, 2% Spandex / bottom: 59% Polyamide, 33% Wool, 8% Spandex) These are the first blended wool that feels like there is zero wool in it. So much so that I put it under my microscope to make sure it had the wool straggles. And it does. Though I can’t really identify wool vs nylon threads at all. On other materials they seemed to be different yarns and woven together. Maybe this is a single yarn spun with wool and nylon? Maybe? If so, that might be the difference for me.

At the same time I ordered their tree fl ( 50% Lyocell, 50% Wool ) and that is itchy just like other similar blends (icebreaker cool-lite being the most similar).

Nobull blended items, the ones with 59% wool and 38% lyocell, are all tolerable (in fact, I am keeping at least the shorts, maybe the 1/4 zip). Ironically, the shirts with nearly 69% lyocell are itchy. I really have no explanation for any of this. The 59% wool models also have an unspecified poly/spandex “liner” on the tag in the clothes that is not listed on the site. All I can say is this wool doesn’t bother me, so I am wondering if it is actually a dual layer fabric. I plan on asking nobull about this (again).

Meriwool lightweight (100% merino 16.5) is *just* tolerable enough to wear. But the light weight is 190g and the 16.5 micron doesn’t seem quite as effective as arcteryx Ionia. If I can swing the money, I might keep these for a winter layer. But as I am in spring, it’s just not needed at the moment.

Kuiu Active Merino 105 ( Nuyarn Merino Wool – 105 g/m²
55% merino wool 17.5 micron / 35 % Polyester / 10% Polymide ) is way itchier than the Ultra Merino 120 ( Nuyarn Merino- 70% Merino 17.5 micron / 30% Nylon ). The 120 is tolerable, and I can wear it for extended periods without wanting to scratch my skin off. The 105 does have a texture to the weave. And I believe that is probably contributing to the itch, but it also has a distinct wool itch feeling. The 120 is the one I would keep if the mammut hadn’t blown it off the map.

Pnuma base haven has the power wool grid scratchy ( again, mid layer in colder weather sounds perfect, but not needed now ). Stio Basis is still incoming. I was hoping the lighter grid texture (and lighter g/m2) would be better than the pnuma. Not here yet. And, I am still planning on trying the patagonia cool line (probably all of them since I can try most in store in multiple sizes). I am very curious about the cool merino (of course the model that isn’t in my stores). I may also go try artilect (again) as I never tried their main stuff, just a beanie. And most brands beanies in the “same material” do not feel like the bottoms or tops of that brand to me.

The one site I found that reviewed the trift is here: https://www.treelinereview.com/gearreviews/best-base-layers#skiing-and-snow

They called it the best skiing and snow layer. I assume they just mean as a base as these are fairly light weight. Mammut doesn’t provide the g/m2, but I weighed the Kuiu 160 bottoms and found them to be identical in weight (155 – 157 grams each for mediums). Which may mean 160 g/m2. To me they feel lighter than the kuiu while wearing them. Closer if not surpassing the kuru 145 bottoms.

Other notes about the trift: I was between sizes so I went down. That made them compressive to the point I thought they might have sent the wrong size. It’s not bad at all just closer to the feeling of the running tights I had been trying. Not relaxed like the rho lt. And it’s not a *lot* of compression, just enough to make pulling them up be one of those shimmy things. Less than any of the running tights (peak mission, janji trail)

I have 2 current concerns: 1) is there enough wool to hold off the odor issues? No clue. 2) Given the amount of nylon and spandex, are these going to have that “need to peel them off me” feeling that running tights had (and UA heatgear for that matter) when in use? Don’t know yet. But it’s looking like I will find out.

Fun times. Hopefully I get to move on to ultra-lite mids to pull moisture out of this thing. Enough out of me.

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