A good alternative to WPB gear for ACTIVE backpacking

[Jack]

Brad, Wild Things has a coyote (tan) version of their wind shirt/pants.

[Richard Nisley]

Brad,

You can add Coyote (brownish) to you list of the jacket colors that are widely available.

I have tested a very large number of EPIC samples in a spectrum of colors. These samples were sent to me by BPL forum members who acquired them from fabric outlets. Unfortunately, most of them tested at <1 CFM.

 

[BlackHatGuy]

Nunatak sells jackets made with either black or orange Epic. Perhaps they’d make a windshirt/jacket if asked.

[Mike M]

^ that’s a good idea; would probably be worth getting a sample (or two) to Richard if he was willing to test them

[Richard Nisley]

EPIC is a process that can be used to create whatever CFM and HH the customer requests. I strongly suggest that you get the specs for a fabric, to insure it will meet your needs, before you go to the expense of making or ordering a custom garment.

 

[Richard Nisley]

5mm FOV

My 12/15/15 test report summary for the Nunatak EPIC burnt orange, 1.7 oz polyester, indicate that IT IS NOT A VIABLE “active rainproof element”.

.128mm thick
15.42 CFM
Small sample areal density 1.99oz/yd2 versus 1.70 oz/yd2 spec (before coating)
Fabric denier ~70 (the same as standard military windshirt fabrics)
Virgin HH 140.6 (caused by the fabric weave having large pores adjacent to the rip-stop threads shown as the horizontal axis in the micrograph above)

[BlackHatGuy]

Well, so much for that idea… :-)

Thanks Richard, you are one of this site’s true gems.

[Diane Pinkers]

So, as the proud owner of a pre2013 Pat Houdini, it is useful as a windshirt in dry conditions.  If I want an active, rainproof layer, I’d do better with a newer Patagonia Houdini, or a Luke’s Argon wind jacket. I’ve searched the threads to try to relate the Zpacks Challenger 2016 in the same terms, and didn’t find a CFM measurement for it. How does it compare to this system?

And, what about baselayer in the 50-55 degree range? I find the Cap4 to be good 40 to 50, and the Expedition weight in the 30’s, but still struggle with spring time rainy base layer.

[Bill M.]

I’m a tired, old traditional hiker, and don’t have the experience or expertise most of the posters to this thread do. But because I’ve been following it  closely, (great thread, great information,) and because I had to go out on a training hike today anyway, I decided to push my comfort level and try out my new Patagonia AirShed windshirt (3.4 oz). Normally, in these conditions, I would hike in an Ice Breaker Merino wool tee base layer, a heavier cap 2 or smartwool zip top and then a raincoat (an old Arc’teryx something). But today, indoors, I was wearing an old, thin Patagonia capeline 1 layer. I threw the new windshirt over the cap1 base layer (seemed way too thin for conditions) and took my pack out into a 50F drizzle with an easy but steady breeze, maybe 2 or 3mph. Still plenty of snow around in patches. I was carrying a full (27lb) pack and had a R1 hoody and the rain coat I could put on if necessary. My training route goes up and down between 3,000 and 4,000 ft for about 4 miles in open and forested country. I took it slow and spent time in the more exposed areas. I never overheated on the uphills, and I never felt uncomfortable or chilly on the flats & downhills. Even on the ridge top, where I was exposed to more wind,  I felt comfortable and warm enough. The windshirt beaded up the water and never had a chance to wet out (rain never got especially heavy). I wouldn’t have considered that possible before reading this thread. Great stuff. I believe I’ve had an epiphany. Now I’ve caught the bug and plan to get a more technical piece and experiment – maybe the Wild Things EPIC windshirt. I fear for my wallet.

[BlackHatGuy]

Richard, how does Pertex Equilibrium stack up?

[Richard Nisley]

Diane,

I tested and previously posted my measurements of the black Zpacks Challenger WPB Cuben as .29 CFM. The ASTM E96 Procedure B g/m2/hr value is 23.8. For a relative gauge, this is about 1/2 as breathable as a standard eVent garment.

For an “active rainproof ensemble” application, you need a Power Dry base layer to rapidly move any water away from your skin. The MEC T2 (or similar) is the best option for temperatures warmer than you are comfortable with a Cap 4.

[Richard Nisley]

Bill M.,

Thank you for sharing your testing experience with the forum!

[Richard Nisley]

Doug,

Pertex Equilibrium gives me pause because of an apparent range of fabric characteristics with the same name. I have seen test results of 5, 10, and 20 CFM. In contrast, the current specification says <12 CFM.

On the positive side, it applies capillary action technology conventionally applied to base layer products. As long as you don’t get DWR on the inside of the fabric it should work better than most conventional weaves for a “active rainproof element”. Like Buffalo, Paramo, and Furtech you will have to periodically apply DWR to the exterior side of the fabric but, for many types of applications, this is acceptable.

 

[Todd Stough]

This thread is great.  The problem is I find it really confusing.  I mean to say, it makes sense when I read it, sort of like a computer training class, however I feel I have no idea how to put it into use.

I’m getting that Houdini (new), the military L4 and Lukes all perform as desired.

Do softshells do the same or is there just as much range in their performance?  Costco often sells some very reasonable priced softshell jackets and in fact my wife has a couple.

Power dry is just the polartec fleece with the little grid squares inside, they list some other types as power dry, for example one that is more of an mutli layer but not fuzzy. Does anything power dry work?

We were out this weekend in some slushy snow soup and found that non water proof shoes just don’t work.  Her feet got soaked and stayed soaked and froze.

[James Marco]

When you are actively hiking, nothing helps with wetting out from the inside. I have found that even hiking cold, to the point of not quite shivering, doesn’t help much. Your legs will generate heat. They need a good supply of blood to supply sugar, oxygen to keep going. That heat is transferred to your body because of that. If you start loosing the blood supply, due to being too cold, you get cramps, easily.
I get a sweaty torso, even when my arms are almost numb and I cannot feel my fingers. My hair gets damp under any sort of hat, even though I need one to cover my ears. My feet get wet, from run-off down my pants and onto/into my socks…squishy wet at times. Dry socks, baggies, etc don’t seem to help unless they are up to my underwear.
I just buy a cheap rain jacket, usually waterproof, that keeps the cold rain drops from getting to my skin. The worst of this is mornings at 32F putting on cold, wet cloths and shoes for continuing. Once I warm up a bit with hiking, I am again fine. Sometimes I have to stop and wring out my socks, but, that is hiking in the rain.
DWR stuff only seems to help for a few hours. It usually gets overwhelmed by internal moisture and then starts wetting out. It simply does not breath well enough to work, unless, as Richard says, you are sitting in one spot. It does no better than a $20 nylon/vinyl rain jacket even though it cost $250. And, the DWR never seems to recover 100% at night. It gets worse every day. This is something Richard does not test for, nor mention. Nope, been there done that. I just don’t bother with DWR. If I want rain protection, I want waterproof. Even wet, I can double it as a ground cloth on wet ground.
That said, there are large areas of the US that don’t need extra help from waterproof and DWR works well in those areas, I guess. But, I have been out in 7 days straight of rain in the NE…near the end of that time I was not having fun.

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

Just proofs again that actually you should know how the thermoregulatary system of your body works and add to that some experience and self-knowledge and you start to know which claims not to believe and what you need. In essence gear choices for hiking are simple once you know what you need and what can or can’t work.

[Mike M]

And, what about baselayer in the 50-55 degree range? I find the Cap4 to be good 40 to 50, and the Expedition weight in the 30’s, but still struggle with spring time rainy base layer.

Diane- I’ve had good luck with both Patagonia’s new Lightweight Capilene- 2.3 oz/yard (vs 3.8 oz for the Cap 4)- it’s a grid pattern as well and OR’s Echo (is a similar weight grid)

This is for “active” endeavors

[Edward Barton]

Great thread everyone, +1 on Paul’s question about CFM of a windshirt that wets out. Does CFM go to zero?

This seems like a consideration with the BD alpine start and the Wild Things Epic jacket – both have high CFM, high HH, great DWR: but they are thicker than typical windshirts and I know from experience that once the alpine start wets out, it takes a lot longer to dry.

Is this also true with the 70D Epic windshirts? How does the potential to wet out affect performance in extended rain, and is a thinner, quicker drying fabric more preferable in prolonged wet conditions?

I wonder whether starting out with a thinner but higher CFM/lower HH outer layer (like pata airshed) and compensating with a thicker midlayer, might help avoid wetting out by pushing more heat and air out? Though Richard says this doesn’t meet the >300HH requirement. It sounds like in Bill’s experiment, the rain wasn’t heavy enough to overwhelm the DWR of the airshed in the first place….

Maybe we need a lower denier, higher CFM Epic fabric to be manufactured (with the matte, quiet finish of the airshed)….paging @kcbaker-2 : Kyle, it seems like there could be a lot of interest in a fabric like this.

[Ken Larson]

Richard…..Two Questions for you in relation to alternatives to WPB gear for ACTIVE & STATIC  backpacking:

1.)  Have you done any recent 2015- 2016 testing of the Patagonia Houdini windshirt concerning their Hydrostatic Head (MM), Air Permeability (CFM) & DWR material features?

2.)  In a Active and Static environments (63*F – 40*F)  what quantitative temperature difference would one expect comparing a MH Monkey Man Polartec Tec Thermal Pro High Loft Vest to a Patagonia Nano-Air Vest using a Capilene LW shirt and a Nylon windshirt with EPIC encapsulation?

[BlackHatGuy]

“Like Buffalo, Paramo, and Furtech you will have to periodically apply DWR to the exterior side of the fabric but, for many types of applications, this is acceptable.”

Thanks Richard. I asked because I have a Buffalo curbar windtop. I’ll have to use it on my next cold-drizzle  hike to see how it performs.

[Richard Nisley]

Todd,

You said, “Do softshells do the same or is there just as much range in their performance? ”

From the perspective of a “active rainproof element” model they do the same thing although softshells are normally about 2x the weight of a comparable performing windshirt. For both, you have to know the CFM value (sometimes available) and HH value (rarely available) to see if a garment can be adopted to this model.

The following is an old Marmot softshell graphic from their dealer guide. Neither Marmot nor the Marmot retailers normally disclosed the CFM to consumers. That still holds today for most vendors.

Any Polartec Power Dry fabric will work in this model.

[Richard Nisley]

Edward,

You said, “+1 on Paul’s question about CFM of a windshirt that wets out. Does CFM go to zero?”

No. I use EPIC primarily as a “rainproof active element”. Even though the surface eventually looks like a conventional DWR wet out, the CFM doesn’t get noticeably reduced. My GUESS as to why?: is that the pore sizes of the fabric are dramatically larger than any WPB membrane or WPB coating. Hence the water’s surface tension can’t bridge these large pores. To a much lessor extent, since the MET rate is so high in this application, the temperature of the fabric is higher and this also reduces the surface tension of water.

THEORETICALLY, the same large pore size and temperature should also break the surface tension of water and not appreciably reduce the CFM for a diminished DWR windshirt. Probably not to the same extent as EPIC but enough to still be effective.

[Richard Nisley]

Ken,

You said, “1.)  Have you done any recent 2015- 2016 testing of the Patagonia Houdini windshirt concerning their Hydrostatic Head (MM), Air Permeability (CFM) & DWR material features?”

I tested from 2007 to 2012 and then the changed fabric in 2013. Their specs haven’t changed since then and I have not tested subsequent years.

To avoid thread drift I will answer 2 via an individual email.

 

[Ken Larson]

Thanks….

[Stumphges]

Richard, in a chart you provided early in this thread, you have the Arcteryx Squamish as a trail-worthy equivalent to PCU Level 4 (25 cfm; >300 mm HH). Is the most recent version of the Squamish more water resistant than the 2014-2015 version you tested at 40 cfm and 70 mm and reported on in 2015?

I have a general sense that water-resistant, hydrophobic layers, such as the Paramo “pump liner” are more effective than hydrophilic fabrics such as Power Dry for use as the inner layer in the two-layer system, because the former will tend to repel more significant misting intrusion and compel it to drain down and out of the system, while the latter might become overwhelmed by exterior intrusion and end up saturated. I haven’t tested Power Dry enough to know for sure, but this seems likely to me. What is your opinion and/or experience?

I have a Paramo pump liner from Cioch that I would like to pair with Epic fabrics for long trips, but Roger Caffin once posted that Nikwax is incompatible with Epic. I’m considering stripping the Nikwax at the dry cleaners and re-impregnating this pump liner with a C6 product (the route that FurTech took with their Paramo imitation), but would like to check: Is Epic compatible with fluorocarbon DWR chemicals that come in contact with it?

Also, has anyone tried the products made by the Japanese company Finetrack (finetrack.com)? A BPL member and resident of Japan wrote several posts about their clothing system, which was apparently originally developed for river climbing, some years ago. I’ve been meaning to try it but haven’t got around to it. The key to the system, assuming I’ve been able to suss it out with Google Translate, is a very thin and very light inner mesh layer that is impregnated with DWR. Over this goes a poly layer similar to Power Dry. Here is a link to the mesh inner layer: https://www.finetrack.com/products/l1-drylayer/

And a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ylKrRxsToo

Finetrack’s hiking ensemble uses extremely-water resistant Gore Windstopper as the overlayer, so the two layer hydrophobic mesh + Power Dry equivalent is probably not meant to handle significant water intrusion. However, they also have a system for river climbing and fishing that uses a more tightly woven inner mesh layer with a second hydrophobic nylon layer on top of that (I think this combo is shown early in the above video).

I’m not sure either would be ideal for our purposes, but do wonder if the inner mesh layer might serve even better worn over the top of a Power Dry layer, rather than under it. The hydrophobic mesh would repel and drain mist intruding through the wind layer and the Power Dry would pull double duty by wicking any water that made it through, as well as sweat, continuously away from the body. This combo might serve as well as the thicker Paramo hydrophobic “pump liner,” at lighter weight. Thoughts?

[Author]

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