A good alternative to WPB gear for ACTIVE backpacking

[Richard Nisley]

Paul,

The OR Ferrosi CFM specs (not tested by me) can be found on multiple sites: Example site 1 Example site 2

This garment is a knit with 14% elastane; as stretched, the CFM value should progressively go up from the spec value.

[James Marco]

Diane, Well, it depends. In a storm system when I am getting 3-4 days of rain, no. If it breaks up during the night, some. But don’t forget it is just a tarp. No condensation problems. Bugs can be bad, but not terrible at 50F. The boots I flip over and pull the liners out…same results. The rest just drains out, mostly. But my hiking cloths are all light weight nylon. I just use extra long johns when it is getting cold…~32F. If I have to carry two sets of long johns, I am planning some nights below 32. Next week, for instance. I have seen it get down to the 20’s. Nothing dries at 20F. It freezes, and stays that way. I have found that if you have a morning fire at 20F, you can wave your frozen hiking cloths over it and they will warm up so you can change into them…even works if you just have cold wet cloths.

Yeah, while hiking, wet drops are bad on your skin, or, even on a single light weight layer. I gave up on poncho’s after destroying the 3rd one in three trips…too much scrub and stuff. I think I have one around somewhere…wind, sticks, boulders, something. It ends up leaking worse than a rain jacket. I have some items in my pack that MUST stay dry: food & sleeping gear, some maps, lighter, and batteries. Anything else is a don’t care.

[Stumphges]

The windshirt + wicking underlayer proposed in this thread as an alternative to WPB gear for high-MET backpacking has been tangentially discussed on some other threads recently started by Richard Nisley, with some new windshirts identified as suitable for the crucial outer layer in these systems. I thought I would bring this thread back to the top of the forum.

Richard, your >300mm HH DIY test is extremely useful in identifying windshirts up to the task. This thread would be a good place for members to post windshirts that have passed this test, with updates as the fabric ages.

I have a large collection of windlayers that I’ve done shower testing with and some of them hold out water significantly better than, say, the Houdini, which has HH of 300-400mm. Richard, is it possible to calibrate the DIY test (using more water, maybe) to identify fabrics that can withstand higher HH, 400 mm or 500 mm?

What we need most is Wild Things to make non-camo versions of their Windshirt 1.0-  with its 300+ HH, 30 CFM and permanent water-resistance – but that doesn’t look likely to happen.

 

[Mike M]

One of my favorite threads :)

Just a quick story from the other day relating to this topic; was out in the hills training- carrying a 45 lb pack (load consisting of mostly sand!).  Pretty rough country with a lot of good elevation gain and loss, so definitely a high MET outing

Temps in the low 40’s when I left the truck, with a good chance of precipitation

I wore a very light long sleeve base layer (Outdoor Research Echo- microgrid) and my Alpine Start windshirt over the top.  The loop starts with a long climb, I had the windshirt almost fully zipped open and the sleeves pulled up.  When I reached the first ridge, the wind had picked up and it started to rain.  Zipped up the windshirt and pulled up the hood and pressed on.  It rained about twenty minutes, relatively hard- the water just beaded nicely on the windshirt.  The sun broke out for about 10 minutes or so and then the clouds came rushing back in, this time it was sleet- the temperature must have dropped slightly.  I buttoned down the hatches again and kept moving.  This event was in the 20 minute ballpark as well, again just water beading.

The sun came out again only to followed by a heavy snow squall, hood up and zipped up- I also donned light gloves and a half Buff to go under my ballcap.  Another 20-ish or so minute event.

Anywho, I stayed warm and dry the entire time.  The base layer did it’s job and the windshirt did it’s job- breathing well, but still blocking wind and precip.

I wish I could say my legs fared as well, but a 45 lb pack just hammers me! :)

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Mike

Heat output > water input (as it were).
Useful experience indeed. Thanks.

Cheers

[Mike M]

Roger- I’m sure you know the feeling when you get something dialed in and works exactly as you had hoped- nice feeling indeed :)

Nike

[Tuukka U]

What do you all think of Ventile and similar tightly woven cotton fabrics for active WPB?

I’m asking cause EtaDry seems quite compliant with the Natick specs. 300mm of HH and 18 CFM for the 110 and 130 weights or 40 CFM for the 150 weight.
Obviously, cotton won’t transfer moisture quite as well as nylon/polyester and dries a bit slower. But cotton has its advantages, too.

A Russian company called Splav also has some cotton fabric with 500mm of HH.
FWIW, according to their articles, the DWR wearing off reduces the HH by 50mm.
See: http://www.splav.ru/articles/63/ and http://www.splav.ru/articles/71/ (Google Translate)

[Mike M]

I interesting, if the specs are accurate, I would think it might be a piece I’d consider for cold stuff in the winter.

[Roger Caffin]

Read up on the history of Ventile – it really is amazing stuff. The only problem is the weight.

Cheers

[Geoff Caplan]

I used Ventile extensively in Scotland as a kid.

Very pleasant to wear – quiet and breathes well.

Very effective at keeping out the wind, as the name implies.

Keeps you dry, provided you use a heavy double Ventile.  Light single Ventile is only shower-proof.

BUT

By modern standards it’s very heavy – a waterproof shell jacket will weigh around 3lbs 2oz (1410g).

And it absorbs a LOT of water, taking forever to dry.

I remember being able to quite literally stand my jacket up on the drying room floor after it got wet and then frozen.

It’s not really going to cut it as a lightweight outer shell. I’ve sometimes considered using a single layer smock as a wind shirt, but the weight is prohibitive at around 1lb (454g).

And it would be very bulky compared to a Pertex-type wind shirt.

Ventile is great for situations where weight isn’t so important, and there’s a little Scottish company that still offers a pretty good range of garments if you’re interested. They sew them locally and are open to making minor customisations:

http://hilltrek.co.uk

 

[Mike M]

I would probably consider a piece for hunting in cold weather (it’s quiet vs nylon), where you’re going to be around a fire (fares better than any nylon) and very cold weather outings (it’s not going to get wet).

But the other 90% of the time, a modern windshirt is going to be a better option.

[Roger Caffin]

Ventile competes very well with GTX in the Antarctic. Its extra weight helps block the wind, and it breathes so much better when you are working.

Cheers

[Edward John M]

With Ventiles lightest fabric at 165GSM against a modern nylon it is going to be a kilo Vs a hundred grams on the back but I still have a soft spot for Ventile. Using a good DWR with Ventile works. Mine is old and untreated but I think it now comes from the factory with some sort of treatment. Mainly I think to aid the drying time/lessen saturation

[Tuukka U]

I think Ventile is practically the same stuff as EtaProof, which has about 750mm of HH and an air permeability of only 1CFM. EtaDry, which I talked about, is quite a bit more air permeable and offered at lightest in a 110gsm weight fabric. Not exactly windshirt material, but it could be suitable for a low/medium weight softshell type garment for maybe about 350g of total weight. I think the extra air permeability and lighter fabric could make it dry significantly faster than “traditional” Ventile. I wonder how the strength and abrasion resistance compare to nylon fabrics, though.

But I’m just hypothesizing. I think Mike summed it up pretty well – modern synthetics work better in most cases. Some people might prefer cotton for its looks, too.

[Tuukka U]

I noticed that the Massdrop Veil Windshell has a 420mm hydrostatic head mentioned in the comments (a 3-week-old comment by kim.suarez). In another comment, they also claim that it’s silicone encapsulated.

Seems like a good “active WPB” shell choice? The air permeability of 11CFM could be higher, but I understand it’d be just about enough in anything but warm weather.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

kevperro, “…just embrace getting wet.”

In other words you are saying “Embrace the Suck”.

->I have that pithy bit of wisdom on an embroidered, Velcro-backed patch. I carry it in my pack when I know the weather will suck sometime in the trip.

->Then I mount it on my baseball hat’s Velcro front patch, sewn there just for those occasions. It has drawn a variety of responses (including angry ones). Go figure.

[Lorenzo M]

What’s the best compromise, hooded windshirt @~100g ?

I picked up a <$20 hooded windshirt from Decathlon, 120g in xl that is over 300mm hh. Breathability a bit better than paramo

[Opogobalus]

So how do we adjust this system for a legs option? Many of us won’t use rain pants above 45f. Either no lower rain protection, or using a rain kilt. Below 45f something more needs to be in place for me not to start feeling cold.

[Stumphges]

Jonathan,

One option is US armed forces PCU Gen II Level 5 pants made by Patagonia of gray (‘foliate green’) Epic silicone-encapsulated fabric. My home testing showed this fabric to have greater water resistance than Paramo fabric, and it is specced at 5 CFM, whereas Paramo outer fabric is specced at 2CFM, so breathability should be a bit better. And since the PCU stuff is silicone-encapsulated, the water-repellancy won’t degrade permanently upon abrasion with brush, etc. These pants look a bit military with pockets, etc. but can fit in on the trail with a consumer-style jacket worn above.  Can be found on eBay.

 

[Mike M]

I have those pants; really like them. Probably a little warm for true summer wear, but a great spring/fall pant- I wear them all hunting season (save the very coldest weather).

The Epic fabric does a great job, love the built in suspenders (they also have a drop seat so you don’t have to take the suspenders off), roomy pockets and side zips- nice.

[Stumphges]

Hey Mike,

Yeah, too warm for summer, but great for cooler temps. The Gen III version is also good, a little lower hydrostatic head compared to Gen II, but still better than Paramo, at least under my reasonably well-controlled shower testing. Gen III easier to find than Gen II but only available in camos. I plan to wear the Multicam version deer hunting this year, although Epics are a little loud for stalking.

The Multicam Wildthings 1.0 fabric remains the best silicone-encapsulated fabric I’ve heard of. High CFM with high HH that is unrivaled. I would think that whichever company gets their hands on that fabric to make consumer wind layers would dominate this market segment.

Pitty that Epic has faded completely from the consumer market; silicone-encapsulation is the best outer fabric for this active alternative to WPB strategy when any bushwhacking is required, and for longer trips. I’m a bit surprised that the alarm over the environmental/health impact of PFC DWRs, and the announcements subsequently issued by various outdoor clothes companies (e.g. Patagonia) about their active hunts for alternatives, didn’t result in a return to Epic, which was fairly popular a decade or so ago. (Although I did see an Epic patent that described fiber saturation with PFCs prior to silicone encapsulation. This PFC pre-saturation might account for the freakishly good drying times we see with Epic and reduce its ‘greeness’.)

Some mention of Massdrop’s Veil windshell upthread, with mention of possible silicone-encapsulation of the fabric used for that garment. I’m skeptical: the discussion thread on Massdrop also mentions 95% spray rating after 10 washes, which is not very good, and possibility of refreshing DWR with after-market products, which is neither possible nor necessary with true silicone-encapsulated fabrics.

[Mike M]

not sure why Epic fell out of vogue, obviously the military is still impressed with it

[Roger Caffin]

Epic:
They tried to sell it on cotton and that was a complete failure. The cotton fibre is not strong enough (nylon is).
The coating is a bit susceptible to skin oils and plant stuff which kill the HH.
It was priced a bit high.
It is breathable for sure, but not ‘waterproof’. Poor marketing.

My 2c, having used it a fair bit.
Cheers

[Mike M]

it definitely needs washing occasionally; even the military states that

not waterproof, but highly water resistant :)

agree- has to be poor marketing; although a DOD contract is probably nothing to sneeze at either

[Edward Barton]

How are the hoods/fit on the Gen II/III hoodies? A poorly fitting hood was the knock on the wild things multicam jacket, if I remember.

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