Distance fly casting

[R Y]

I started Tenkara fishing this past summer and am definitely still a newbie. I've used the bow & arrow cast, and I guess basic casts where the line is about the same length of the rod. I've tried using somewhat longer lines and never could figure out how to cast them. I've done reasonably well on high sierra creeks and various lakes using a more typical line length (about the same length as the rod).

Recently I started visiting some rivers which are open to winter fishing, typically catch & release, barbless flies only. One in particular there was a spot where I saw fish rising near the other side, but could not reach with my longest rod (~13-14 feet). I tried wading to get closer to the fish, but got to a deep part where the water was over my waist and I didn't feel comfortable going further. My reach was still at least 10 feet too short.

So I am contemplating the unthinkable (grin) : getting a western fly rod and learning to cast it. I started reading a book by Lefty Kreh on fly casting, and wow, it sounds way different from Tenkara. There is a casting pool near my house, so I could definitely practice.

Anyhow, the point of this rambling message is this: is it realistic to cast a dry fly 30-40 feet with any hope of delicate presentation, at least for a beginner ?
-Rob

[Nick C.]

Breaking your question into three parts:
1. Is it realistic to cast a dry fly 30-40 feet?
2. With any hope of delicate presentation?
3. At least for a beginner?

I would say a definite yes! to the first part. I'm a beginner tenkara fisherman as well and curious about Western fly fishing, I took the fly fishing 101 class at my local Orvis store (which was free!). By the end of the morning I was shooting line across the parking lot and dropping it on their velcro fish. And coincidentally the instructor actually called it a 40-foot cast.

As to the second part, maybe? It was a parking lot, my casting was crude, and even when tenkara fishing,I primarily use nymphs so "delicate dry presentations" aren't really something I have a lot of experience with.

For the third part, also a "yes" with the caveat that a some of the people who had never handled a rod before were having a bit of trouble getting the hang of casting.

Anyways, the casting part of Western fly fishing is a lot of fun (even more so than tenkara casting, I think) and definitely worth a try!

[Greg Mihalik]

With a 13' rod and no wind, a forty foot cast is possible, and with a beadhead, a given.

However, casting across is the easy part. It is very hard to convince a fish to not run downstream in that situation. Then what you have to do is handline/haul that fish back upstream, against and crossing the current. If it has any size it will be tough – ripped lips, or a fish trailing a bunch of tippet.

By fishing upstream you have a much better change of keeping the fish headed upstream, then let him drift back for an easier landing.

[Yuri R]

Just FYI – tenkara clearly won't do 30ft, but you could get close to 20 or so with Tenkara rod, correct line and technique.

Here is a picture for example of using longer line (source – TenkaraUSA)

http://tenkarausa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/tenkaracasting_byBrianFlemming.jpg

[Greg Mihalik]

"Just FYI – tenkara clearly won't do 30ft …"

uhhh…

Daniel Galhardo, the owner/CEO of Tenkara USA, is doing the casting. That line is twice the length of his 13' Ayu, plus tippet. So more than 40'. This photo shoot was specifically arranged to demonstrate casting long lines with basic tenkara gear.

I went out this afternoon with a 14' rod, 15' of line, and 6' of tippet. Laid it out flat, fly first 90% of the time, into a slight head wind. (And caught a bunch of fish.)

[Most folks consider the distance from where you stand to where you land your fly the distance of the cast. Is this your understanding as well?]

[Yuri R]

No, i mean actual 30ft line since the question was about 30-40ft reach and I'm leaving 10 feet for rod and reduction for sag and angle of the rod.

[MFR]

First, it is completely reasonable for a beginner to expect to be able to cast 30-40 feet with a Western rod. Delicate presentation may come a little later, but unless you're fishing heavily pressured water (say Montana's Missouri River), you should be able to fool some fish. Most Western fly casters would consider that still in the close range of fly casting, where it's recommended beginners stay until they've developed some of the necessary fundamentals.

As far as distance casting with tenkara goes, It's worth noting that a few advanced casters can cast far (Daniel's picture above proves that), but even with a 14' rod and a line twice that length, they're barely hitting 30' total on the cast. They are some key problems with this, though. First, you need a lot of space behind you and above you to make a cast that long, as the farther you cast with tenkara, the more open the loops in your casting stroke. If you look at the picture of Daniel above, that would be considered a very open loop for Western fly casting. Large loops take up more space in the air (and are thus more likely to snag on trees or brush). The other problem with such open loops is that if there is any wind at all, then they lose the energy transferred from the rod and collapse. Good luck casting 20' then. And because the line weighs next to nothing, it is much more susceptible to wind than on a Western rod.

One of the primary differences between tenkara and Western fly fishing is that the line is comparatively heavy. That's the reason you see different weights listed for rods–five-weight, six-weight, seven-weight, and so on. Each rod is designed to cast line of a certain weight. The line provides several advantages, most notably in situations where some distance is required. I won't go into all of the details, but if you're interested, I wrote an article comparing tenkara and Western fishing that goes into this issue with more detail a few months ago for TrailGroove; you can find it here.

Finally, just one more thing–I have to take issue with Greg's statement that you can cast beadheads well with tenkara. My experience was exactly the opposite. Even a smaller beadhead (say #16 or so) was a frustration to cast. Tenkara doesn't cast weight well at all (another advantage of a Western rod, due to the weighted line above). It's excellent for drag-free presentation for unweighted flies, but not with most flies with beadheads and/or lead wraps.

[Edited for spelling]

[James Marco]

Yes. Typical "western" fly fishing is done at that distance. Remember the trout will typically follow a fly for a foot or two before the strike. You want a couple feet, depending on the current up to 10 feet, to pull slack, mend around obstructions (current, rocks, logs, etc. You do not want the line to land over or close to the fish. So, you have to account for that, too. Depending on the character of the stream, of course, your style can be across, upstream or down. I spent a very pleasant afternoon catching around 40 or so fish fishing DOWNSTREAM with a dry. It all depends on how you present the fly. Sometimes I snub everything up to 5' of line and a 12' leader. I have spent hours dropping this in smaller pocket water as I hiked a stream. Sometimes I need a 60' cast with a size 22 midge. Fish the conditions. Don't get caught up in any one particular vein.

Basically, longer casts involve higher line speeds (tighter loops.) Without snapping the fly, this is difficult for many to master. Your leader becomes important. You prepare several loops of line in you off hand. Just after you finish forward casting, you simply open your off hand. Your cast will pull the loops off your hand, flipping off your hand and following the line. Just as you reach your intended distance, you snub the line to allow the loop to finish rolling out, just as if you had cast it that way. This is commonly referred to as "shooting" or "chuting" the line out. This is difficult to master because it introduces a new set of variables, starting with line speed and ending with timing, distance, loop unrolling, wind conditions, etc. It is considered less delicate, therefore. They make a special line for this called the Weight Forward lines. Or you can make up your own at about 20-30' of DT line and upwards of 100 yd of heavy braided backer…these are called shooting heads.

These are used quite a bit by good fishermen who like to be able to cast longer distances. Usually this is coupled with a softer rod and lighter line (say use a 4 weight forward on a 5 weight rod) for nymps, wets and drys on larger streams and rivers. You get extra distance in light winds but sacrifice extreme accuracy. The wind will push the line, and your fly, off your intended target. You can abort the cast early if it looks bad, though. better to make 4-5 bad casts and one good one than spook the fish or not be able to reach him.

I often bring several lines, often on spare reel spools, with me. that way I can adjust my casts to the conditions I need. I use a 4wt rod but have a 3 weight forward, a 4dt and a 5dt for the same reel. One is for long distances, one is for average distance. One is for short distances, small streamers and wets. Each will affect how you cast, the distance you want to cast, and what group of fly you can use.

This system is far more versatile than a simple Tenkara style, but it weighs about 10-20 times more…easily. Depends on what you want to do besides hiking. Tenkara is meant to simplify fishing, not enable long casts or use larger flies…it is really the wrong equipment.

[R Y]

Very interesting reading, thanks all.

I headed out this weekend to the same stretch of river, wading across downstream at a shallower place, then hiking upstream opposite the stretch I'd fished previously. From a rise on the opposite bank I could see the river there was much wider than I'd thought, perhaps 80-100'. Funny how easy it is to underestimate distance from a vantage point with no elevation.

Got myself a beginner rig (Redington Crosswater) to practice with, and managed to really get some nasty snarls — typical beginner stuff I suppose. I guess some strategy is called for, since you have to watch your backcast or else the trees and bushes will eat your flies. I also worked on my roll cast. Slow progress.

From what I could tell the fish hold in a deeper section with lots of brush on the bank, which effectively prevents western casting, and just out of tenkara range. But from the opposite bank I suspect I may be able to wade across just far enough …

Fun hobby; now I see what the big deal is (grin). Tenkara: the gateway drug.

[Greg Mihalik]

"If you look at the picture of Daniel above, that would be considered a very open look for Western fly casting. "

Just for the record – that shot is pure PR, for the sake of demonstration. It is an "artistic statement", not a functional one. Daniel seldom fishes anything longer that a rod length of line, plus 3' of tippet. There are others though who cast 2xRodLength, plus 6' or more of tippet, usually in unique situations to very spooky fish. It's a skill that can be learned.

"I have to take issue with Greg's statement that you can cast beadheads well with tenkara. My experience was exactly the opposite."

I'm sorry beadheads don't work for you.

Dr. Ishigaki, the Japanese tenkara legend associated with Tenkara USA does quite well with them. A google search of tenkara and beadhead will turn up a number of discussions in various forums. They are not new to tenkara.

My fly box contains beadheads from #18 up to #12, and some in the style of Craven's Two Bit Hooker, with two tungsten beads. I have a number of lead wrapped wool body Killer Bugs, in the style of Frank Sawyer. If you want to dredge the bottom of a deep fast hole, you need to get down there fast.

Long lines and heavy flys aren't for everyone, but they do work and they do open a lot of doors.

[MFR]

For some good instructional videos on how to cast a Western rod, search for "Tim Rajeff" in YouTube, and you should find several helpful videos. I feel like his way of explaining how to cast has really helped me solve some of my own issues (such as tailing loops).

Just for the record – that shot is pure PR, for the sake of demonstration. It is an "artistic statement", not a functional one. Daniel seldom fishes anything longer that a rod length of line, plus 3' of tippet. There are others though who cast 2xRodLength, plus 6' or more of tippet, usually in unique situations to very spooky fish. It's a skill that can be learned.

That's interesting. Maybe I am wrong, but when I started researching tenkara about two and a half years ago to give it a try, I remember Daniel saying in several videos that he prefers to fish with a line 1.5-2x his rod length. Maybe he's changed that.

Regardless, a tenkara rod still casts much more open loops compared to a Western rod, and I haven't found loops like the one in the picture above to be that uncommon (though far less grandiose). The primary reason has to do with the stop on the back cast. Traditional Western fly casting has the rod stop between 10 and 2 (sometimes closer to 11 than 2). However, tenkara cuts the back cast short, stopping at 12 or just past it. This opens up the loop considerably in comparison by causing the tip of the line to travel at an angle compared to the ground rather than parallel. It's one of the reasons that false casting is not necessary with tenkara (unless you want to dry your fly–which I don't really actually buy into anyway).

I'm sorry beadheads don't work for you.

I should clarify to say that beadheads were castable, but–at least in my opinion–they detracted from the reasons I was interested in tenkara in the first place. They aren't nearly as accurate, and they make fishing a dry-dropper an exercise in frustration. I've seen several videos explaining how to get around the issues with weighted flies, and if you're committed to tenkara already, then they certainly do work. I just don't find them enjoyable or advantageous compared to fishing them with a Western rod.

I think Jerry said it best–fish the conditions, not the rods. Unless of course you really just like the rod, then accept its limitations. They all have them.

[Marko Botsaris]

WEIGHT

I %100 agree with Greg that you CAN easily cast beadheads with a tenkara rod. FWIW, I don't find dry dropper setups (much easier to cast than weighted streamers) to be either difficult to cast delicately with a tenkara rod, or any real stretch of the tenkara paradigm either. But I have MANY times cast (and caught dozens of 15"+ fish) on heavy(ish) beadhead wolley buggers (up to size 8) just fine with my 12' Iwana. You just need to adjust your stroke accordingly and accept that the cast is not going to be a classic tenkara delicate presentation. With those flies it really isn't with a regular fly rod either – nor does it need to be. You also need to know what you are doing a bit, or you may (as a novice) crack you tip by hitting it with the bead. FWIW fishing beadhead streamers on a tenkra rod, especially if you can see the fish, is a total blast! But I do realize this is not strictly tenkara-style delicate presentation fishing. The next step may be to hook on some bait. LOL But it is a hoot.

LENGTH

If you need/want a little extra extra distance it is entirely assessable with a tenkara rod – though you will certainly eventually stretch the tenkara paradigm. At some point you will be using a tenkara rod outside of it optimal design specs. But out to 30' (line, not total distance) you can cast 'normally' if you practice. Out this distance the main inconvenience is having to land the fish by hand-lining – unless you are fortunate to have a nice soft fish-friendly bank you can use. As I think I have posted before on here, that distance is no intrinsic problem. I have (for example) a 25 furled tenkara line that casts easily and if you add a traditional tapered 10 ft trout leader it works passably well out to 35 feet from the tip of the rod. I'd highly recommend the tapered lines for longer casts. You can even use long 16-20' mono tapered 12lb tarpon or bonefish leaders (less than $10) for an entire tenkara line (for dries especially). Those are cheaper than most of the fancier stuff sold as tenkara lines.

I have played with using "real" fly line material for the extra weight and sometime for the floating properties. For example the line that comes with the Patagonia "tenkara" setup is just a very thin (though not by tenkara standards) coated level line. But when you start casting for more distance or using heavier line you are looking at more of a casting taper and you first strain and then break the tenkara model. That is fine if it works for you, but you do eventually loose the presentation advantages that tenkara can have over other types of fly fishing.

There are also line management issues for handling a 30+ foot line. These can be solved through experience and practice. If you are willing to use a heavier line you can learn to handle easily a line 4X or more the length of the rod. I do this all the time when I am spey casting with a "regular" fly rod. This is a style of fly fishing where 35 feet or more (up to even 60+ feet for a long rod) of line is out of the tip before the cast starts. I usually am doing this for this for salmon or steelhead. On my 13' spey rod for example there is 45' out the tip), but recently I have done this for trout on light line single-handed rods and it is a blast, and I have no doubt that by constructing the right line you could manage a single spey or snake roll style cast (of a sort) with a tenkara rod. The rod action might be pretty "off", but I'm sure it would be doable with some adjustments. That would solve the back casting room problem as well for you – at the cost of heavily messing with the presentation style. But perfectly fishable. Here the problem is that it is hard to vary the distance you fish at with using a SINGLE line very effectively for lines longer than about 2X the length of the rod. But casting is NOT an issue – though I suppose a bit of skill might be initially. Listen carefully for the rumbles in the distance – that is the old-time tenkara masters rolling in their graves. On the other hand, I have seen videos of some Japanese fisherman fishing with very long fixed lines (on long rods) and doing what is in effect a vertical snap T cast (aka as a "catch cast") on small HOOKED FISH, and flipping them back 40 or more feet out of the water and straight into their waiting nets. LOL Nice trick!

OTHER UL STRATS

Of course at some point, possibly well before the point described above, this adaptation to longer lenghts gets ridiculous. If weight is the issue, a 3-weight fly rod weighs about the same or less than any tenkara rod. My 5 wt Helios 2 rod weighs less than my Iwana. If you begrudge the weight of a reel, and since you only need one under such conditions to hold the line, leave the reel at home, learn how to do do some basic fly casting (an afternoon's work), and bring a regular fly rod – maybe a cheapo 2 or 3 weight, 4 piece rod. You can now loose some of the length of the rod as well since you don't need it. Use a 7 11/2 ft 2 wt rod, for example. Get a matching single taper weight forward floating line which will weigh only a few oz. These usually are 80+ feet, so just cut off the back say 30-40 feet (or whatever) of shooting line, nail knot a loop in the back end, and attach a tiny micro-biner on to that. Clip that onto your belt loop and now you have a setup that is as light as a tenkara setup and you can cast and fish it exactly like a regular fly rod (just without the reel). Strip the line onto the water or bank, cast and shoot. You should be able to shoot line out to 40' or so after a few hours of practice on grass, though perhaps not too gracefully until you get better. But when you have mastered this you can cast however far you want. It has the advantage also that you can strip in the fish for a rod buffered landing.

Or you could get cheapo a UL plastic reel (and maybe drill more holes in it). Or make a line holder from scratch. There are definitely some DIY projects in there. I'd love to see some reports.

But just in case you are starting to think I'm totally mental, when I fish with a tenkara rod I prefer to fish a line no more than 1 1/2 times the length of the rod and agree with traditional tenkara style aesthetics – within reason. But I do carry a 25' foot line with me, even backpacking. I also like the limitations. I even like the one-fly limitations, especially with trad tenkara flies which are very adaptable as to how they are fished. On the other hand some days my mood it to see how MANY different flies I can catch fish on, and even then I don't find fishing western flies of all types to strain the tenkara paradigm too much….but is is also sometimes fun to figure out how to stretch things to the max. Maybe I will post how to construct a (oxymoronic) tenkara spey line if I figure it out. Can't wait to try my first perry poke with my iwana. LOL

[Adan Lopez]

I've never understood all this talk about how different Tenkara is from western fly casting. I've done both and I just dont find that they differ all that much. Not enough that they require a different explanation for casting, anyway. One requires 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock while the other requires something else? That has always been casting-pond mumbo jumbo to me. I dont get it. The two were so similar that when I started with Tenkara I did not notice any adjustment period whatsoever from my conventional setup. One is typically softer, more finesse, less power applied to the cast, very much like casting my "western" 3wt line to a fish only 15 feet away, which I did all the time. Felt the same to me!

If you're new to flyfishing, yes there is a difference in that one allows you release (shoot) line during the cast. That's not because they work differently, it's just because one has a spool and the other has a fixed line. Not much to explain here either, it seems.

[Adan Lopez]

what was the point of all this again? Oh yeah..

"is it realistic to cast a dry fly 30-40 feet with any hope of delicate presentation, at least for a beginner ?"

The short answer is no. Your success rate of making a delicate presentation at 30-40 feet will be a bit low as a beginner. In real life fishing situations, 1 out of 5 would be very good if you dont have much practice at that distance. And as you know, with tough fish in tough water where a delicate and accurate presentation is required, that kind of success rate wont get you into much fish. But you can catch plenty of brookies in high altitude lakes! They love splashy presentations!

By the way, I have seen a complete noob walk up to Hot Creek, widely known for it's finicky trout, and hook a huge (over 24-inch) rainbow while his line was completely tangled around his legs!! He tried to run but his line caused him to fall into the river, then he climbed out and ran after the trout which was now 2 pools below him, and eventually landed the thing in the ugliest, most unsophisticated way possible. If I remember right, I got skunked that day. So I wouldnt worry about it too much.

[Marko Botsaris]

For a beginning fly caster, no you will not make a delicate presentation casting 40 ft. But you are unlikely to do so at any distance using a western rod when you start. The good news is it will not matter that much under most conditions so you will still catch some fish even at the start. There are loads of dumb hungry fish out there. The other good news is 40 ft is nothing and in a month or two, with some practice if you want it badly enough, you WILL be able to do it.

As for myself, and I would consider myself an "intermediate" (probably a lifetime sentence) and I feel like I could turn over a dry lightly with a tight loop at 40 feet on my 5 wt about %95 of the time at at 60 maybe %85 of the time. I can even get them out to 90 if all the gods are in my favor. An advanced caster could hit 100+ if needed, and the aforementioned Steve Rajeff (about the worlds best) could push close to 200 consistently under ideal conditions (his personal best is about 240). That is WHY people fly fish with a western fly rod, and tenkara is just a very cool minority sub-current and not any kind of revolution in fly fishing.

Tenkara is easier to pick up quickly though, in both skill and in term of the cost. It is also a very efficient way to catch fish in a certain subset of fishing conditions, especially ones you often find in the wilderness while backpacking. The traditional part also has a nice minimalist ethos that appeals strongly to another tiny side group – that of of LW backpackers.

That is a funny story about Hot Creek. Not only are the fish finicky (their world is seemly made out of nothing but food, let alone the fishing pressure) but it is extremely technical fishing. I was there for a couple of days last summer (in the public section) where birds could basically walk across the weeds from one side to the other. They were seriously feeding on aquatic insects while standing on the floating weeds. I tried in vain to catch something by drifting nymphs under the weed beds. I saw plenty of fish, and saw plenty feeding, but nada. Tenkara would be zero help there over western. Obviously I should have tried the new highly technical tangle-the-line-up-in-my-legs-and-fall-in-the-water technique.

[Greg Mihalik]

And I'll throw this in –

Tenkara is a technique based on a short, tight line. You Can do amazing stuff, but the bread and butter of tenkara is a close-in, short drift, in quick water.

Czech nymphing, pesca alla Valsesiana, competition fly fishing, and tenkara are all examples of "convergent evolution" – simple cast, short drift, efficient and effective.

When the hatch is on, you will be out-gunned by the Western guy with a #22 WD40. But the other 90% of the time you will be catching fish while they just watch.

Make sure you are choosing the right tool for the job. For booming out 60' casts, go western. For a simple effective way to catch fish all day long, go with tenkara. If you want to mix-and-match, get a 10' western rod and fish Czech without all the strike indicator hoo-ha.

IMHO

[Marko Botsaris]

I'd agree with that %100. Tb be honest, though it usually happens a few times a day, for every time I can't quite reach a fish with a tenkara rod there are usually three when I wished they were either a bit further away, or the bushes were further away, or both. The primary solutions to a lot of those problems (too close or too far) is probably stalking, waders and roll casting – and sticking with tenkara rather than switching to western.

Also to point out the obvious, in addition to catching more fish under the right conditions it is just plain more fun to catch small fish on a rig that would feel touch-and-go for a 20" trout. The lack of extra line suddenly make landing small fish seem like something interesting in and of itself.

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