Question for 3-pin boot users

[Andrew F]

So in an attempt to learn to ski a little better and expand my winter horizons, I got a pair of three-pin tele boots (Alpina Alaska) and a set of Voile Mountaineer bindings for my 125 cm Altai Hoks. When I stick my boot into the binding, there's some pivoting in the duckbill joint even with the binding on the third click (tightest setting). As a result, every time I stride, the pins engage/disengage with the pin holes on the boot. Not completely, but over about half their length. I guess I was expecting that to be more of a rigid connection with any movement as a result of the flex in the sole of the boots. Can any of you more experienced skiers tell me if this is normal or not? Seems like it might cause premature wear to the boots.

[Andrew F]

Just to be clear, when my heel is flat on the ski the duckbill lifts slightly off the pins. When I lift my heel it drops down and the pins seat fully.

[Christian Edstrom]

No, that's strange. What happens if you lift your heel before you snap the rat trap down?

[Andrew F]

I have to lift my heel up to get the pins to engage. Then I lock it down with the binding. It's almost like the duckbill is too thin or the binding isn't closing tight enough. I just measured the duckbill and it's 5/8" thick. Happens the same on both boots/bindings. I remember last time I tried 3-pins it took a considerable amount of force to close the binding past the 2nd latch…this doesn't take very much even to get it on the 3rd latch. Anybody have any ideas as to what's going on…?

[Greg Mihalik]

"Just to be clear, when my heel is flat on the ski the duckbill lifts slightly off the pins."

You installed the heel-plates, right?

[Art …]

I'm not an expert, but my boot tips are clamped down very tightly onto my 3 pins, don't move a bit. my heals lift up and down but the rest is very rigid and secure.
are the clamps on your bindings bent ?

[Andrew F]

Yeah, I installed the heel risers, so even "heel down" is 1/2" above the ski.

Can anyone measure the thickness of their duckbill and see if it matches the 5/8" I measured on my boots?

What click setting are you guys using? Last time I used 3 pins I remember the first setting being OK, the second was very tight, and I couldn't even get it into the third. This set up goes into the third without pushing too hard and the boot is still loose.

[Andrew F]

I called Mountain Gear to get some advice, they're going to try to help me, but the backup plan is to bend the binding or add a shim.

[Art …]

either the tips of your new boots are very thin or your clamp on the toe binding is bent.
your description of click 2 being tight and click 3 being almost impossible is the norm from my experience.

[Andrew F]

I agree Art…

Correction, my duckbill is 9/16, not 5/8 thick.

[Roger Caffin]

9/16" sounds a bit thin. I would consider shimming the duckbill.

Anyhow, can I suggest you upgrade from these to the Voile 3-pin Telemark cables? The basic rat-trap is OK, but rather limited. Our experience is that adding cables gives you miles/gallons/tons more control over the ski when turning – even on gentle XC touring.

Cheers

[Andrew F]

Thanks all for the suggestions. My boot is 9/16" thick, which is 14.3 mm. Mountain Gear was very helpful – they say the manufacturer specified range is 13-19 mm so my boot is on the lower end but should still work. As a result they're sending me a replacement to see if these bindings are defective. Roger I took your advice and they're sending me a cable binding too, I'll see which one fits the best. If none of them fit any better I'll throw one of them in the vice and bend it to get a better fit.

I sure hope this works because the Alaskas were the only 3-pin boots I could find that fit me, after trying on many others.

[Doug L]

Seems to be your not alone in this problem:

http://www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=184

You might find that switching to a Rottefella super telemark might fix the slop problem if you don't want to go the shim route. According to specs the Rottefella should fit duckbills between 12 and 20 mm.

[Charley White]

I had this once, bills so thin I went down many clicks, but did get contact. And just to be clear, your pins are just riding up&down within the boot pinholes, yes? Holes aren't actually coming "off" the pins, right? And, while I'm obsessing, you only "pivot" up and down; the duckbill nestles snugly in the binding and there is no side-to-side play?

Good luck with replacements…the combo should be nice. If the replacements are better but wanting a tad, I'd shim that binding over the pins instead of the boot toe. Voile sells anti-ice plastic pieces with pinholes to cover screw heads & would provide some shimming. But damn little, & they are expensive, so a gorilla tape "shim" with an anti-ice overlay could do the trick.

[Bob Gross]

Many moons ago, I got my first x-c skis. That included some Rossignol skis without metal edges, some Rottefella bindings, bamboo poles, and some terrible boots.

After a while, I discovered that something was odd with the duckbill. If the wire-type bindings were clamped down tight enough, it was forming a groove in the top of the duckbill. Eventually that led to the failure of the entire front half inch of the boot. Not good. Back in those days, there were three widths of a normal 3-pin binding, so the exact size of the boots dictated which width should be used. There was the normal 75mm width, plus 71mm for narrow feet, plus 79mm for wide feet. If you got the wrong match with boots and bindings, that was a problem.

Some years later, I moved up to some (Karhu?) bindings with flat clamps. Those worked much better since they did not deform the duckbill, so the clamping effect stayed more consistent for a longer time. Still, I found the need to change bindings every 10-15 years when they got worn or weak. I've seen bindings that totally failed due to improper fit, and it is not pretty when that happens about three days out on a six-day trip. I went for many years on Asolo Snowfield boots.

More recently, I moved out of the arena of leather boots and got into some good synthetic leather boots. They seem to stand up to the clamping pressure pretty good.
I've always had to lift my heels a bit to get the three pins to engage the holes, but once they clamped in, they were good.

After two major knee injuries, ask me how I know this.

–B.G.–

[Andrew F]

Doug, thanks for the suggestions on the alternate bindings. I'd prefer the Voiles since my skis have drilled inserts for them, but if they don't work I'll try those instead.

Charley, you nailed it. The pins slide in and out of the holes, but never come all the way out. This means the top of the duckbill slides against the underside of the bail as the boot rotates in the binding. No side-to-side play. It's quite tight up against the sides of my boot; you can imagine that if the side flanges of the binding are bent at too steep of an angle, the mount will be more narrow & with a bigger gap for the duckbill. Maybe that's what happened with this pair.

Thanks for the idea on the anti-ice tape; I needed some anyway and I was able to add some to my existing Mountain Gear order. Hopefully the tape adds some thickness and takes up the slop in the binding and I won't have to bend anything.

I hope one of these solutions pans out as I'm skiing in Yosemite next Friday… would hate to have to swap back to the universal binding. It works, but ain't as much fun.

[Bob Gross]

"I hope one of these solutions pans out as I'm skiing in Yosemite next Friday"

We will look forward to your report.

Keep an eye out for the animal tracks.

–B.G.–

[Andrew F]

Bob, at this rate I'll be looking for animal tracks in the mud. No snow in the forecast at the moment.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Andrew,

IF you can find one, a metal 3 pin (3 hole) piece that screws on to reinforce the holes in your rubber duckbill sole will also serve as a shim. I have a pair on my old Vasque leather Tele boots.

Eventually the 3 pin holes in the rubber sole will wear and enlarge, giving sloppy fit.

BTW, I use a heavy duty Rotefella Tele binding on my backcountry Asnes military skis and a heavy duty Voile 3 pin binding on my Atomic Tele skis. Both hold very tightly.

[David Chenault]

Odd that the Alaska duckbill is so near the end of what works in 3 pin bindings. The old nordic-only 3 pins of 3 decades ago used a thinner duckbill, but those boots and bindings are all but extinct. I have to assume Alpina built the Alaskas to work in both, but to what end?

The Rottefella Super tele 3 pins do close slightly tighter than Mountaineers, so they might work well. They are unfortunately more expensive, and aside form this fit issue no better functionally. They have the same mounting pattern so they'll go on the Hoks no problem.

[Bob Gross]

"animal tracks in the mud"

Mud is good.

A couple of weeks ago I saw an excellent fresh mountain lion track in mud.

It kind of makes the hair on the back of your neck stand up.

But that's OK, because a mountain lion can't tele.

–B.G.–

[Andrew F]

I measured the binding I have and the minimum size is 16 mm, which is off from the factory spec of 13 mm. It's the same for both bindings, so I am afraid that the spec is wrong and the replacements will be the same, but we'll see.

[Andrew F]

I did a little more research and found the following quote directly from Voile:

"The binding you are referring to is our old "telemark" SKU:201. This had a bale that could lower to 12mm. We changed that binding a number of years ago to the new "3-pin cable and 3-pin HD mountaineer" SKU: 301 and 202HD. These were updated to accommodate the newer style plastic telemark boots duck bills thickness which is typically around 16-20mm."

Seems like they never bothered to update the specs they send out to retailers. So, I don't expect the replacements to be any different. I went ahead and ordered a pair of the Super Teles instead, hopefully they will get here in time & solve the problem.

[Roger Caffin]

> Seems like they never bothered to update the specs they send out to retailers.
Or maybe the retailers were desparate to unload the old stock?

Putting a shim under or on top of the duckbill remains a good option.

Cheers

[Ross Mellows]

I hate pins. I'd get something like a Rottefella Chilli.

[Author]

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