Tent and sleeping bag project, need advice.

[jared arand]

I am trying to plan out two projects here, with minimal experience sewing. I spoke some with the gentleman from ripstopbytheroll.com for some ideas on materials. In all of these aspects i want balance. For instance, an ultralight backpacker might go with a tent that is extremely thin material to save weight, but the tent may get holes more easily and generally wear out faster. I'd like to be somewhere close to the middle when it comes to durability vs ultra super duper hyper light weight. Price vs payoff is also a consideration of balance. Like not spending 5x the money to save 1oz.

In general, what type of thread do you use for this sort of application?

What would be a good source for tough reliable zippers for a cold weather sleeping bag, and water resistant ones you would need for a tent?

I'm not all that familiar with sealing the seams on something that is supposed to be waterproof. I hear taping seams mentioned, but don't exactly know what that means. I've seen waterproofing silicon spray, that seems fairly straight forward. Is the actual type of seam sewn also a component of the waterproofing?

PROJECT 1:

TENT; I want to go with a tent versus tarp because it seems more idiot proof in keeping rain out and spiders/mosquitos off my face.

I am planning to emulate the sea to summit, specialist solo and duo tents in design, which if you are not familiar with them, are extremely light tents that can be supported internally by trekking poles and then only need stakes and guy lines to stand up. The sea to summit is made out of extremely expensive cuben fiber fabric, I'm probably not going to go that expensive of a route, and the cuben fabric is so thin i have heard a lot of reviews mentioning how much easier it gets holes that have to be taped up to prevent more tearing.

To consider what weight fabric is appropriate for lightness, I intend to make the tent roughly a 1.5 person tent, room for one person and gear normally, 2 people side sleeping in an emergency survival situation where comfort is not the primary concern.

I was told silpoly was easier to work with than silnylon, and waterproof enough for the walls and top of a tent and the vestibule. So i was looking at 1.1oz silpoly for the top and sides, and 0.9oz no-seeum netting.

For the bottom of the tent, for durability reasons and waterproofing, it was recommended I go with something like HyperD 300 material. Out of curiosity, I have seen thermal barrier tarps, and thermal fabrics, but I never see tent bottoms being made from it. Is this a possible consideration or no? Is it possible the HyperD 300 might be unnecessary with a cheap simple tyvek ground sheet?

The expensive Sea to summit tents, weigh in at 15oz and 22oz without poles or stakes. Adding 6 titanium stakes and two quality trekking poles is in the area of a pound of extra weight. If I managed to keep my hopefully much more durable and cheaper tent to 3.5lbs total or less, I'd be thrilled.

PROJECT 2:

SLEEPING BAG; I guess my goal is to make a fairly flexible(temperature wise) general purpose sleeping bag that is good for cold weather hiking and camping, and survival situations.

For my taste, down is extremely expensive. Obviously everyone knows down's positives, high warmth to weight ratio, and very compressible. My cold weather sleeping bag at the moment weighs nearly 5lbs and is ENORMOUS, even in a compression sack. However, down and even the special water resistant down, can lose thermal efficiency when wet. For survivability in extreme circumstances and cost, I tend to lean towards synthetic fill, but it would be nice if the synthetic i used would improve on the 5lb and monsterous size.

On the subject of fill, ripstopbytheroll.com sells primaloft gold and climashield apex. I have learned that the primaloft is loose material that must be quilted like down in order to not shift and leave cold spots. Therefore the climashield is probably friendlier for a noobie such as myself to work with, but I was also told that the primaloft compresses better than the climashield. How much of a difference there is, or what compressed size i can expect from either, i have no idea. I was told the primaloft is slightly warmer than the climashield, so theoretically I would need less fill. In the case of the climashield, 4 square yards of 5oz material would be 20oz, which is not too bad.

I am of the mindset that warmer is better, because you can always unzip for warmer weather, but you can never make an inadequate bag warmer in cold weather, while on a trail or in a survival situation. For specifically summer backpacking, I may get a different bag entirely, who knows. My goal is to make the bag adequate down to +10 for survival, and hopefully up to +60 with zippers open. I'm not sure how much fill it takes to achieve +10 survival rating, and how big that sleeping bag would wind up being.

Another consideration is the outer and inner material of the bag. It was suggested i use a slightly water resistant fabric that is still light, like 1.0oz HyperD.

I apologize in advance for this wall of text, hopefully someone has the will power to read through it and help me.

[jared arand]

For reference on the tent:

http://www.seatosummit.com/product/?item=The+Specialist+Duo&o1=0&o2=0&o3=502

[Rosaleen Sullivan]

It sounds as if you are fairly new not only to making gear, but to using it. Otherwise, you might be more familiar with fabrics, fills, techniques, etc.

This is not the answer that you sought, but my impression is that you may be happier with borrowing or renting some gear to test it out, or even looking at used gear to start with. Used quality gear can be found at good prices which can be mostly recouped by reselling, if it is cared for properly.

After you really know what you want and have some experience with making smaller items, reevaluate what you have learned, and then go for making your own, should you still wish to do so.

I prefer down and sleeping in a hammock, but for a short trip with hubby, I'm looking at making a synthetic filled quilt for the two of us, and I bought a used tent. I feel secure that if we don't like or seem to need these later, they can be sold to get much of the investment back.

Down can be messy and a pain to work. People do it all the time, though. The only time I've been wet is when someone else has fiddled with my fly, and even then, my down bag was not so wet as for me to be cold. Call it luck, or taking care of my stuff. A lighter bag can be made up for by wearing more layers of clothes. Light-weighters have done this for a very long time.

Good Luck!

[Jordo _99]

Like Rosaleen, I'm a bit concerned that you're moving way too fast with too little knowledge about gear and no experience with MYOG.

I got a strong impression that you are trying to come up with a plan without a foundation of gear/material knowledge and are hoping BLP members will put you on the right path. I agree with Rosaleen that you need to gain some more knowledge about gear function and maintenance before tacking this.

Analyzing your own gear and comparing it to what you think you need and doing some basic MYOG projects like a tarp will get you where you need to be.

[Sam Farrington]

This is the first I've heard of the StoS tents being made of Cuben. Could you provide a link to this new development?

I tend to agree with other posters. Prepping for BP cannot be done on a computer.
You need to get out there and find out what's involved from direct experience. Perhaps you live in an area where there is a trail club that has group trips and rents or provides gear. After a few trips, everything will become much clearer. You'll know whether you even like to BP, and have a frame of reference to select from the wealth of material on a site like this one. An alternative is to start with only one night trips with a good weather report, and stick to well marked trails. There are lots of books about BP basics, and reading one would be very helpful if there are no clubs around. Chris Townsend's book is my favorite, but there is the last edition of 'The Complete Walker' and many others. Abebooks.com is a good source of older books.

IMO, 'What kind of ____ should I get' inquiries on a site like this one will at best net only a lot of responses from people promoting products, along with some responses from unbiased BPers who have used and like a product, but whose opinions may or may not be helpful, and get buried under the shtick.

This site used to do reviews comparing a number of products of the same type, single wall tents for example, and if you search those articles out, you'll get a better idea of the considerations involved, along with the jargon that some are wedded to, and you need to know in order to comprehend what is being said. But you may need to pay for more than a forum membership to get access to the articles. $25 a year isn't too burdensome for most; but then again, I don't know where you are, or what your situation is like.

Should this post sound patronizing or condescending, please accept my apology. That was certainly not my intention.

[jimmer ultralight]

to plow right into making your own gear.They sell the materials.

You will likely wind up with an expensive,unfinished mess or even in best case ,something inferior to a product designed and built by professionals.

Shelter and sleeping gear are important peices of gear and MUST work when you need them

Seek out good reasonably priced commercial versions of the tent and sleeping bag designs you want..Use them for a bit.
You also should brush up on your design research. Thete is NO MAGIC in that Sea to Summit Specialist design. Several other designs on the market are just as good and use the same basic design.

Six Moon Designs makes a duo model called the Haven. The Haven sil Tarp and bug net inner with full bathtub floor weigh practically the same as the Specialist tent at 29 oz. The Haven tarp fly/outer cost about $280 together .The seperate tarp and inner are more versatile than tbe STS design,too..The Haven inner can be clipped into the tarp body for very quick setup.You dont gain anything over the Haven with the Specialist…

The Haven will teach you LOT about a two pole UL duo shelter design for not a lot of $$.

In the meantime ,create some simple DIY sylnylon projects like Stuff sacks ,rain mitts or a poncho or a tarp. etc. If you want to try an insulation project make a UL synthetic vest.,etc.

Once you get your sewing/ designing and material knowlege down ,THEN try tents and sleeping bags.

[Franco Darioli]

"The sea to summit is made out of extremely expensive cuben fiber fabric'
No they use Pertex Endurance 20D nylon .

BTW, I hope you are not starting this project to save money because you will not.
However for fun and knowledge it can be very rewarding.

[Rosaleen Sullivan]

Well…It seems I was not so far afield from the group in my impressions. I was half-expecting to get flamed. I do fear that buying materials for several MYOG projects for what seems to be a "Newbie" will have him spending a LOT of money with little recourse later. At least a well-manufactured piece of quality commercial gear can be sold at a later date. Of course, that is, if it is well-cared for.

There was a gal who wrote in to another Women's only group seeking our advice. It was apparent that she had not done much research before asking advice. It happens that she lived close to me, so I invited her to meet some fellow female backpackers for gear nights, as well as some shake-down hikes, even offering to lend some gear to try out. She declined. Her idea was to be a total "virgin" at hiking, backpacking, camping, the AT, etc. She traveled maybe 100 miles (surprisingly)before she left the trail for good. The last we heard from her, this gal decided that she HATED hiking, backpacking, and camping, and was selling all of her gear. That part was not surprising. Apparently, she did try out Esbit fuel tablets, but with her kitchen pot, and decided that the fuel didn't work. She wanted to keep her camping cookware virginal, as well…

I would hate to see another person get off on the wrong foot, so-to-speak, then miss out on years of outdoor enjoyment.

To just try out some sewing for cheap, rustle up some used Tyvek mailers and make some stuff sacks. I put two together to make a stuff sack for my down sweater, night things, and a "neck pillow" (cut down childs swim cuff), extra socks and panties. Turned inside out, I use it for a pillow case. It has tabs on the inside so I can add elastic cord to tie it to my hammock ridge line or around an inflatable mattress to keep it from sliding off during the night. Use another to make a protective sack for your headlamp. In camp, use the sack as a throw bag (insert a rock) to toss your bear bag line over a limb. Maybe make another for your cooking gear or first aid kit. This could give you nearly free gear and practice sewing. Use polyester thread rather than cotton to avoid rot. One of my friends hit up a work site and scored free Tyvek scraps from which she made her pack. I haven't been so lucky. You could make your tarp and groundsheet from Tyvek scraps, if you can find them cheap. Tyvek is a little heavier than silnylon, but if it is free or nearly so, what better practice medium?

[jimmer ultralight]

j,

I retead your first post and looked through the specs bit more closely between the two shelter designs..

Without poles and stakes, the Specialist is quite a bit lighter than the Haven setup- 22oz vs 32oz for the Haven..

BUT.

The two shelters are a perfect example of " no free lunch".
There are several drawbacks to the Specialist.

1) It is made of thin 15d Pertex and Sylnylon. The SMD Haven uses 30D throughout.

2)The Specialist Duo is only 37 inches wide! The Haven floor is 47".

3) The specialist is a single wall design with mesh door and vent panels. Convenient to setup but lacks the two wall design of the Haven, not to mention the ventilation and versatility of a tarp/ innernet setup.

So, the extra 10oz of tbe SMD Haven comes with some very real benefits..

BTW, I am not affiliated with SMD in any way,I just happened to have been looking closely at 2 person two pole shelters for a trip this summer and the Haven is the front runner behind a $595 Zpacks Duplex..;) And many of the advantages that the Haven has over the Specialist also apply to the Duplex..

[Troy Ammons]

IMO a tent is way too complex to try as a first or second project and you will get frustrated.

I know you are dead set on a Tent but Build an Apex bag or better yet quilt (easier) tarp and bivy to start and that will get you outdoors and if that works out go on to a tent.

For the quilt, use M50 fabric from thru hiker and Ideally you need 2 quilts if you hike year round. A 5oz is too hot in the summer, so I would build a 2.5 oz and a 5oz and nest together for Winter. Some people make summer quilts open footbox for venting which works but IMO a 5oz quilt for shoulder seasons or winter would be better with a closed footbox.

A M50 2.5oz apex quilt will weigh about 12oz depending and a 5oz apex quilt about 19oz.

You could build your first Bivy out of the 1.25oz Tyvek. It sells for fairly cheap like $3-4 per yard and is easy to work with. That will weigh about 8-9 oz.

Build your First tarp out of cheaper sil nylon seconds. That will allow you to practice sewing silnylon which is a real PIA to work with. Tarps especially SUL ones are always useful. If you ever intend to hammock which is another easy MYOG project all around then set your tarp length accordingly.

[Roger Caffin]

> what type of thread do you use for this sort of application?
There are many, many threads about this here already (sorry about the pun). Try a few searches.

Cheers

[Jordo _99]

I'll echo Jimmer's comments on Haven vs Specialist Duo. The Duo saves some weight but is going to feel cramped compared to it (it's actully 37" at the head but 47" at the shoulders so they just taper the head/foot a lot instead. The Duo is likely more of a 1.5P tent like the OP wants but I feel that the Haven is a more efficient use of volume:weight.

Personally, I have not used either tent but I made a 54" wide version of the Haven. I'd highly recommend working off that design rather than the Specialist Duo if you go the MYOG route because it's simpler in design but performance should be comparable.

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