Fix my clothing system please

[chris smead]

I have a strange backpacking quirk….my shoulder season clothing system is weird….and excessive…and I still get cold while in camp sometimes.
Please set me straight here…I'm hoping for something lighter, but just as versatile and warm.

Clothing I bring for typical Sierras in Sept, or maybe early June.
Top
-Long sleeve Arcteryx phase SL
-MEC T3 hoody for hiking in cold. (Powerdry HE) 8.5 oz
-Patagonia cap 4 zip. 6.7 oz
-Custom goose feet down parka. 7.5 oz. (3.5 oz of downtek fill)
-Stoic wraith windshirt 2.5 oz
-Montane Minimus smock pertex shell 5.3 oz

Bottom
-phase sl boxers 1.8oz
-cap4 bottoms 5.7 oz
-Arcteryx palisade pants 9.5 oz
-Montbell versalite 3.65 oz
-cap2 boxers 2oz-ish..

Explanation:
-I get cold easy…
-I've had bad experiences with synthetic fill and down in wet weather, so I double up the cap4/T3 under a shell. 2 layers of powerdry HE! Am I crazy?
-My butt gets cold easy…so I wear phase SL boxers, cap4 bottoms, AND cap2 boxers over that. Idea being that cap2 boxers serve as spare boxers.

[Nick Gatel]

Are you saying you only get cold at the end of the day when you are at your night camp?

[Bob Moulder]

No fleece? When it's wet, fleece is your last line of defense… mandatory IMO. Also, you didn't mention anything about headwear/gloves.

My typical set-up for top, skin out:

– Hind thin polyester t-shirt
– EMS techwick zip turtle neck
– Polartech 100 fleece jacket (or 200 if it's colder)
– REI Rainwall shell
– Montbell UL down hooded coat (down to about 20 deg), or EB down hooded coat (down to about 0)

Superlight? No. But it has worked very well for a very long time.

No matter how well I manage moisture during the day, at the end of the day there is bound to be some dampness in the lower back (where the pack sits), armpits and lower arms, and seat/legs. At the end of the day I'm going to get a little cold, but the trick is to wear shell and fleece and keep everything zipped up to keep in body warmth while staying physically busy with camp chores. This process keeps me warm while letting body warmth help evaporate moisture. If camp stuff is done and there is nobody else that needs a hand, and I have absolutely nothing physical to do, I might jog around a bit on snowshoes to warm up. I do my absolute best not to put on a down layer until I am as dry as possible.

[Andy F]

+1 on everything Bob said, especially the fleece.

Keep moving.

Fire is nice if there's any chance of one. It warms you three times: gathering wood, cutting/splitting, and burning.

When you're not moving, sit on a pad. (even a 1/4" thick one works great for me on snow)

Drink 16 oz of your favorite hot drink.

Assuming you're fairly dry, stuff/wrap your sleeping bag under your baggiest layer, which is ideally your shell.

[Jennifer Mitol]

you say 3 season sierra, so shall I assume that there is not much in the way of rain, right?

My other assumption is that you are only cold when you stop at the end of the day, or first thing in the morning.

Any reason you are using the 2 powerdry layers instead of say the R1?

And as far as sitting around camp, why not just take a puffier puffy? If it's sitting around camp when you're cold, then carry the extra weight and do something like a mirage?

I would like more information on WHEN you are cold…

[David Chenault]

Replacing the three mid/base layers on your torso with two pieces, one a decent bit warmer, might work well. The T3 hoody and a 100 weight fleece pullover, for instance.

Get a warmer down parka. 3.5 oz of fill isn't that much. At some point you will always get cold around camp without either a fire or being in your sleeping bag.

Cloudveil used to make powerstretch boxer-briefs, and my pair remains standard equipment for cold weather. You might do well buying some 100 weight fleece pants and cutting them off to make shorts.

Generally, cutting down on the number of layers will probably make you warmer, as I can't see your current arrangement not binding and minimizing the efficiency of the dead air trapped between each layer.

[chris smead]

Sorry for the slow reply…busy day at work.
Great feedback so far thanks!

I'm only cold when at camp, and/or sleeping.
Especially if it's soggy out and I'm too afraid to wet out my puffy layers. (Made that mistake before)
T3 + 100wt fleece is something I've been thinking about..but would add more weight.
T3=8.5 + 8.5 for Patagonia Micro D 100wt fleece

Replacing the cap4 zip and the T3 hoody with a single R1 is something to think about. Saves weight.
Is my R1 warmer than the Cap4+T3 combo?

Beefing up my puffy layer is doable…but would add 5oz.
I thought about only using the cap4 and a Mirage…but worried I'd get really cold in wet conditions.

For sleeping…I'm planning to add a gossamer gear thin light pad to my sleeping set up. +5oz…bleh…
(Zpacks 10degree bag + neoair xlite small)
I suppose I could do the cut off fleece pants thing instead…hrm….*gears grinding*

[chris smead]

To answer the previous question..
For my hands I just have a pair of light MH gloves that work fine. For my head I use a 100wt chameece hat from MB+hood from the T3+down parka hood.
Feet are fine…I just use woolie boolies.

I love powerdry HE because i never feel soggy in it…
I only use 2 powerdry HE layers because they are the lightest warmish layers I have…
Interesting comment about using fewer warmer layers…I wonder if the 2 powerdry layers is just a bad idea…
Combined that's over 15oz….R1 is only 12.7.
Or heck….100wt fleece 8.5oz + cap2 is ~13.5oz I think….

So glad I have you guys to help figure this out. Tried to have this discussion with my wife and her eyes glossed over…

[Andrew F]

Some good advice already…

That clothing is pretty close to what I wear in the winter, not in June or September, so I can't imagine that you're cold during the day on the move. I've never been able to wear anything more than a Cap4 + windshirt during the day in the Sierra except maybe on a cold day in winter in which case I'll add a Piton Hybrid jacket or R2 vest, plus warm gauntlets.

Trying to stay warm at night with those layers and fleece isn't very efficient. I'd also recommend substituting something like a Mirage for the Goosefeet parka, or maybe add some down pants instead. Also, consider getting a long sleeping pad which will help keep you warm at night vs. a torso length pad. The thinlight will make a big difference too, especially if you only have a pack under your legs right now.

R1 will not be as warm as a Cap4+T3. But the R1 would be a good active layer to replace both if you run cold. I can't imagine you'd ever be cold moving in an R1 with a windshirt.

My shoulder season clothing:

Top
Wool L/S shirt
Capilene 4 hoody top
Fleece hat
TNF Verto windshirt
Montbell Mirage parka
Hardshell jacket

Bottom
Capilene 1 boxers
Capilene 4 long johns
Arcteryx Palisade pants
Hardshell pants

[jimmer ultralight]

Trapped warm airpockets insulate best of all and doubling up on tight base layers defeats that ,IMHO.

My advice would be ONE warm thermal baselayer top and only one good heavy grid fkeece hoody (Cap 4,etc).

Since you get cold when static and are worried about warmth vs weight ypu might look into a puffy jacket AND a vest. That extra 5 to 7 ounces of insulation around your core is going to do more to keep you warm at rest than anything short of good insulation on your extremities (Beanie,good warm socks and gloves).

Also, eat high protein ,high caloric food AS SOON as you stop and setup camp. Keep your bodies' furnance stoked and also eat a snack before bed ..
Good luck..;)

[IVO K]

Lots of good to great inputs.

Here's mine:
Fix your ground insulation first. NeoAir Xlite small is a joke in shoulder season, especially if inflated by mouth (@ 2:00 a.m. its thickness gets down to 1.75", and so does its R-value).

[Connie Dodson]

My clothing works:

After underwear briefs and "cami" my first layer top is 200 wt. merino half-zip, then a gossamer lightweight breatheable windshirt. I wear Pearl Izumi relaxed fit tights over original US military "silkweights" if I need it. I have a MontBell Thermawrap vest because it has stretch knit side panels to help avoid perspiration. I have an anorak "windshirt" with DWR. I use the tarp, as a wrap if a downpour. I just get my shelter out of wind to get it set up fast to get under it. But our rain storms are brief. Our winds can last for days. I avoid backpacking, during high winds.

Really, this isn't much insulation. It is just that I am "active". I ventilate to avoid perspiration. This is essential.

I suggest a ventilated backpack like ZPacks Arc Blast, Deuter Air, or Granite Gear Crown VC.

For camp, I have a Hammock Gear Burrow 20 top quilt, XTherm, and Gossamer Gear ground sheet for use with a lightweight well-pitched tarp.

I adjust my temperature with hat and gloves, hiking or sleeping. I add only a PolarWrap half mask or Full Head Cover balaclava to breathe warmer air, if cold. I also have wind and waterproof rain chaps for a "trail" with wet brush, if I need it, I pack it. That's about it.

I have stretch gaiters. I have a change of quarter length socks. I have spare warm socks for sleep.

The primary difference I see in "my system" is I have natural fibers near my skin. I have realised fleece doesn't work for me.

I have read we need "insensible moisture" on our skin. I never have a moisture transport fabric first layer.

[Connie Dodson]

Warmth comes from your own metabolism: observe what foods are particularly warming for you.

For me, sesame salt, not hot chili peppers. No kidding.

Have warming food: cocoa? hot soup? protein snack like sausage?

During night time hours, eat a little, and/or, drink a little water. It helps turn up the internal thermostat.

If my nutrition is otherwise adequate, a snickers bar and a little water warm me up during night time hours.

[Kate Magill]

I think Connie has a good point about food. Eating more for dinner (or just before going to be) can really help keep you warm while sleeping. When you hike, you're probably running a calorie deficit, which can make you feel cold and disrupt your sleep, even if you have your layering system dialed in.

I like to have something sweet but relatively oil-rich for "desert"–that is, just before I hang my bear bag. Something like almond butter and honey on a tortilla, nutella on a tortilla, honey-roasted peanuts, trail mix…you get the idea.

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