First published gear list – will this work with a new light pack?

[Bob Shuff]

It's been awhile since I went backpacking, but with my son joining scouts I'm looking forward to some So-Cal weekend trips and maybe something in the Sierra's or Philmont in the next couple of years. I was working to a lighter kit previously before taking a pause with YMCA heavy-weight car camping. Recently I switched to hammock camping and have geared-up lightweight in that area. I also am experimenting with alcohol stoves. Now I'm looking for a new pack. I used to carry a nearly 7 lb Gregory, then got the lightweight bug and got a Mountainsmith Ghost (circa 2006?) but only used it once or twice before taking my break from backpacking. Everything here fits in that pack, but it doesn't carry well for me. I'm looking seriously at a ULA Ohm or GG Gorilla, or something else in that size range, which will take another 10 oz off this weight.

Recent rains excepted, I do have to carry all my water for droughtland So-Cal weekend trips.

Will this fit in those packs and will they carry this weight well? Do I need to lighten up more or look at some other packs instead?

I'm also open to suggestions on gear ideas and even how I categorize my gear. Hopefully this link will work. Thanks for your consideration and help.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1aKcD0CjMyO7MtB6TReaSVewqc2PEXk56CaDPBLD_w9s/edit?usp=sharing

[Jacob Blumenfeld]

Those packs are really designed to be used with base weights of 12lbs and less. That being said, I would say yes, but you could easily lighten up more. For an overnight or weekend trip you may be able to make do, but anything longer or in the event you need to haul water you will need a bigger pack.

There's quite a few things you could leave at home to lighten up:

Spaceblanket – 2
Firesteel -1.2
firestart packets – .5
snowpeak double wall 450 w lid and mesh sack -5.3 (use pot to heat water for drink and use solo cup. I just use my pot for food and hot drinks.)
Kenwood TH-F6 radio – 9.0

would save about 1 lb 4 oz

That was just a start, there were quite a few other things you could choose to leave behind (your pot scrubber, extra shorts, ground sheet if you plan to use a hammock all the time) . If you ever plan on doing longer trips in the future, I would look at bigger packs or packs with a more substantial frame. The SMD fusion 50 and 65 are on sale right now, and can haul a lot of weight.

[Bob Shuff]

thanks Jacob,

I was looking at the Fusion, and my friend just got the 65L model. I tried it on, but it seems a little short on the torso for me. It's adjustable, but just didn't carry great. I may try a Fusion 50 – the price is so good, it might be a good one for my son if not for me.

For the packs you mentioned, do you think I will have a bulk issue, or just carry weight. The great thing about carrying water is it get's lighter with each sip.

I agree I can still cut back in some areas. Thanks for the tips. I try to watch those last minute changes based on weather/etc – it can go up or down if you are not careful.

[Jacob Blumenfeld]

I don't think you will have carry weight or bulk issues with the current setup you have as long as you only will use the pack for 2, max 3 night trips. The SMD 50l may have some bulk issues (but should excel with the carry weight), the OHM i believe has significantly more total volume. The Ohm and gorilla will carry up to 30 lbs but seem to excel with total weights of 18-20 lbs and under.

Just for relativity on what you are looking for, I use a circuit and have a base weight of 10.1lbs or 12.5lbs with a bear can. I like the extra support it offers for those few times I really need to haul, and is worth the small weight penalty for me. It is the perfect size for trips where I need to carry up to 10 days of food in a bear can.

If you are looking to lighten up, I think you should look at lowering the weight of other items in your pack list first before looking at lighter packs. If you need a pack right now because of the current one not fitting well, I would probably choose between a ULA circuit, ULA ohm, or the SMD fusion 65. If you go with the OHM, be prepared to potentially be carrying a pack that may be uncomfortable for longer trips. At the same time, you could always get the OHM, use it to its limits while toughing out any discomfort (You may be perfectly fine) while also lightening up the rest of your gear. Then you could use it for longer trips in the future and not have to buy another pack. I cannot comment on the GG gorilla because I have no experience with it, but I imagine it is in the same class as the OHM.

[Jennifer Mitol]

OK. I've been through your gear list and here is the brutal chopping block:

Tyvek ground sheet: why? you are off the ground in a hammock. Get a polycro sheet for a lot less weight/space if you must keep your stuff on a ground sheet. But seriously, why do you need a ground sheet?

what is the pillow stuff sack? is it a stuff sack you are already using?

why do you have a mesh stuff sack for your rain jacket? Just put it in your pack, especially the big back pocket.

Emergency food??? just eat your food.

5 oz for a first aid kit is WAY too much. And I'm a medical professional – my FAK weighs 1.2 oz. All you need are bandaids and some meds; if that isn't going to cut it then you need to evacuate anyway.

3 oz sunscreen is also way too much. I took 5 oz for 24 days in the high sierra and I'm a pasty pasty white person who likes to wear shorts and short sleeves.

why do you need a space blanket? you have a ton of blankets in your hammock set up.

you have many, many fire things – just learn how to start a fire with 1 match (backpacker.com actually has a cool video on this). You have a fire steel, a lighter, 2 fire start packages…just take 2 mini-bics and be done with it.

What is a Sugru self setting rubber packet? what do you need it for?

You also have LOTS of cooking things and pots and stuff:
SP 450 mug with mesh stuff sack
SP mini solo pot with stuff sack
mini solo cup
vitamin water bottle
3L hydration bladder
just take one pot, use your vitamin water bottle for your coffee or tea or other hot drink, and leave the other pots/cups behind. I also do a lot of desert hiking these days and find that collapsable water bladders are the easiest way to do huge water carries – that way you can roll them up out of the way when you're done.

Why do you need chopsticks AND a spork?

you are taking a mini red sharpie AND a NASA pen. Pick one

why are you taking 2 oz of paracord?

you have lots of things to wipe and clean with:
mini scrub sponge (and dish soap – just use water – no need for dish soap)
full wipe cloth
blue bandana
camp towel. that's WAY too much. pick one and use it for everything.

what's up with all your stuff sacks? No need – just put stuff in your pack. If you have less stuff, you don't need as many sacks to organize it.

4 oz of TP AND kleenex on top of that. you can cut that WAY down, and no need to bring kleenex AND TP. if you must bring TP, just use that for kleenex. Or use one of those 5 towels (LOL!)

what is a Moto X?
Do you need the radio?

Remember that going lighter is also about being simpler – really look at WHY you are taking things, and how you can use one thing for many different purposes.

Good luck!

[Link .]

Mike Clelland(NOLs instructor and author),he has some great free videos on lightening up be sure to watch(his clothing system,the entire contents of his pack,water treatment and part 1 and 2 on the dinky stuff for ideas),this is an article he wrote The fastest way to backpack weight loss

Backpacking Checklist (Gear List): 3-Season, 3-Day

Lightweight Backpacking 101: An Introductory Manual for Lightening Your Load Today (1st Edition – August 2001)

Ultimate Hiking Gear & Skills Clinic

Jamie Shortt talks about his progression and shows his gear list for each stage, Lightweight Testimony: My Journey into Lightweight Backpacking

CleverHiker Light weight Basics
CleverHiker Trail Skills

[Sumi Wada]

The short answer is, yes, the Ohm (and presumably the Gorilla) could handle a 26lb load.

BUT, based on your consumables, this is just for an overnight? If that's the case, and you think you may do longer trips, that 26lb pack weight is going to increase by about 2.5lb for each additional night and will quickly outgrow that comfort zone for those packs. This is why you really want your base weight to fall in the recommended ranges for the packs, and 17lb is very much outside of most "UL" pack recommendations.

Jennifer gave you a good list of "don't need that" items. In general, I would question why you need back-ups or alternatives (e.g. spork and chopsticks, mug and cup, extra clothes) for an overnight, or things like soap, scrub sponges, vitamin water.

38oz for your pack is within the range of many UL packs, so trying to save ounces there isn't a good strategy. Start by simplifying your gear list and re-thinking how essential your "essentials" are.

[Ross Mellows]

Nice one Jennifer – big +1 from me! That outlook is at the core of gear selection for me. Less is more. Even with trad gear I can get my pack weight down to respectable light weight by taking less but taking enough.

[Katherine .]

I'll make the case that a smaller pack can help instill discipline. I'm a big fan of the Ohm.

yeah, looks like you've got a third pot/mug in there. +1 skipping the radio and the ground sheet.

what are those tools? what would you use the extra cordage for?

You're counting the suspension separately from the hammock, right?

And what's s this: "Hammeck Netty w/ integrated bugnet and RL + stuff sac"? Does that incorporate the hammock tarp?

[Bob Shuff]

So is this where I start defending my gear choices? Just kidding. The feedback is great. I can look at a list of gear and justify this and more "just in case." My problem is 90% "just in case", and the other half is the emotional attachment to the gear I researched and bought. For example, I really like that Snow Peak double wall cup, and the lid, and even the mesh sac in came in – it was a souvenir from a 24 hour stopover in Tokyo last year. But I get that it's redundant, and not even the lightest choice for an insulated mug or bowl. I can enjoy it car camping – or maybe use it every morning on the way to work.

Another take away after pondering the comments is that I have created a generic list – food is not weighed for this hypothetical trip, and my daypack emergency food is thrown in unnecessarily. too many pots/cups, utensils and too many firestarters. Fires aren't even allowed around here, although with the rain finally here maybe that will change. I will plan for a specific trip going forward, a weekend in the desert or the local mountains; hiking with just my son or his scout troop (where redundancy abounds).

mini red sharpie and Sugru – gone. Towel, scrub and dish cloth gone (I'll keep the bandana). SP double wall cup – gone (with a sob). I get that even removing the 0.1 oz items start to add up, as I'm seeing 46+ oz in low hanging fruit – with not much loss of comfort or safety. I may keep a bigger first aid kit if it's just me and my son, and the 2oz of mylar just in case.

What do you BPL folks budget for food and water (per meal and/or per day)? Jennifer said she does a lot of desert hiking so like me not much chance to find water along the way. That's led me to do less dehydrated food, although it does simplify the cooking if I can just heat water, and the packaging is less than most other choices.

Again, thanks for the comments on the list and my pack choices. I think I'll keep on trying to lighten up, and then pick one of the smaller packs

BTW…in response to Katherine's last question. The Hammeck Netty is from a lesser known cottage hammock company out of PA. It includes a zippered bugnet and structural ridgeline. Their prices are great and the customer service is second to none. Check them out before you buy a Hennessy or ENO if you are interested in hammock camping. It does not include the tarp or hammock suspension (which could both be lighter), but the hammock itself is really comfy. Also BTW…I have the tyvek in case I'm forced to go to ground, and I know the polycro is lighter, but haven't tried it yet. There's a regular debate on Hammock Forums about why you would ever have to go to ground, and in that unthinkable scenario, do you really need a ground cloth? I guess it's like my mylar…just in case. Need to get over that.

[Bob Gross]

"What do you BPL folks budget for food and water (per meal and/or per day)?"

Obviously this is highly variable. A big person is going to want more food than a small person. A desert hiker will need more water than a glacier hiker.

I don't know what works for anybody else, but I know what works for me. Although my dehydrated food normally works out to about 1.5 pounds per day, I don't always measure it by weight. Often, I measure it by volume, purely by eyeing it on a table. I keep some maltodextrin and energy snacks near the top of my pack so that I can eat before I start up toward any big passes. I never stop for more than 15 minutes during the course of a day's walk.

The amount of water that I carry depends on the distance I expect to travel in a day, how many streams I expect to cross, how hot it is, how much elevation I expect to climb, etc. Often, I start with one quart of water and one quart of Gatorade. Normally, by mid-afternoon, I have finished one of those and I'm halfway through the other. I try to go all the way to camp before I filter and refill my Platypus, but that could change in unusual situations.

–B.G.–

[Jake D]

get a piece of polycro (window shrink wrap. cheap at wallyworld) and skip the mylar and tyvek for less weight and space. You have 2 quilts. you don't need mylar right?

Check out GearGrams.com and transfer your list over there. You can make one big list of all of your gear. then plan out individual trips/seasons picking what you want from the big list. ie i have Summer, Spring/fall, day hike.

much of getting lighter is trusting that it'll be ok. Each trip see what you don't use and leave it.

[Bob Shuff]

some of you have seen my list and maybe read my promises to pare down more. I just saw Gossamer Gear has their packs on sale, and wondered if anyone feels strongly about the Mariposa versus the Gorilla packs (new models).

I was previously leaning towards the smaller packs I mentioned for weight and cost (maybe discipline), but have had a few people suggest larger packs like the SMD Fusion 65 or ULA Circuit. I tried the ULA and it didn't seem to fit me well – may get to try it again on the trail a little this weekend. The Mariposa is largest of this bunch and lighter by ~10oz. It also has the load-lifters that the Gorilla lacks. The only complaint I've heard is that it doesn't really compress well with a smaller load because of no side compression straps. I like the idea of the sleeker Gorilla or Ohm, but keep hearing I should be 10-12 lbs baseweight. Any suggestions?

Thanks again for the feedback.

[Katherine .]

"The Hammeck Netty is from a lesser known cottage hammock company out of PA."

Oh, OK I was getting mixed up about which hammock component was what.

In that case 19 oz is much, much too heavy for a hammock tarp. Trade the WB Superfly for a WB Edge and there's half a pound.

Be careful on the hammock forum — there's not as much concern about weight over there.

[Bob Shuff]

Yes you are right. Most on HF would talk me out of the Edge and into the Superfly, but it's a reasonable debate depending on predicted weather, and as they say, "Winter is coming." My old tarp was a 11' hex at ~32 oz, and my superfly is 13oz lighter has doors that will handle any weather I'll be camping in. I plan to make a smaller hex or asym tarp out of silpoly this spring, which should get me down to 10oz for typical so-cal trips. I can't justify the cost of cuben at this point. Especially since most of the time the tarp stays in my pack.

[Sumi Wada]

I'm a desert hiker. Dry hikes mean carrying lots of water but that's usually compensated by nice weather and nominal rain gear and shelter. I don't know that it really makes a big difference on gear weight in the long run.

Being in the desert doesn't affect my food choices. Taking non-dehydrated food just means you're carrying water-weight in your food. In fact, I really appreciate liquid'y foods in the desert, so lots of dehydrated soups and stews for me. My food weight is always 1lb per day. Just works out that way, based on experience. I used to worry that it wasn't not enough… and packed extra 'just in case' and, yup, it all came back home with me. Just weigh your before/after food weight for a few trips and you'll arrive at your own per-day number.

I carry a ULA Circuit and love it. I think I've had it for 5 years or so. I'm SO over worrying about if everything will fit. Circuit will carry it all, and will cinch down nicely when I don't need all the room, and will handle that extra 10lb of water for a dry camp. My base weight's 11-12lb lately, typical trailhead pack weight is 20-26lb for trips 3-8 nights and starting with 2L of water.

[Katherine .]

you could also get/make something like the WB door kit, which would give you options depending on the forecast.

OK, I don't know SoCal at all, but I'm curious, do you find enough tree coverage for hammock use?

[Bob Shuff]

We've found some great SoCal hammock spots in local NF campgrounds, near Iddylwild (San Jacinto area) and Palomar Mountain. There are lots of backpacking areas with lots of tree near there and in the other local mountains (Laguna and Cuyamaca) as well, which I'm prepping for with my son. I'll be headed to the desert with some friends and our kids this weekend, so that will be my first attempt to find some rocks to hang from. Wish me luck. It's a car camp, so I'll take a tent and pads "just in case". Longer term, I'm looking North to the Sierras.

Since my son joined scouts, he will buddy-up with other scouts in tents. Adults that join the treks don't typically buddy up. The Hammock is ideal for that, maybe 1 lb extra versus just a tarp and a ground pad. Although a hammock is not going to work for a SUL devotee, it really helped me get from the standard tent/pad setup (~5lbs) into the lightweight range, and comfort is better than any pad.

[Bob Shuff]

Sumi,

I desert hiker from Ann Arbor? I give you credit – it's a long way to the desert from there. Thanks for the feedback. I've really only heard good things about the ULA Circuit.

If you don't mind, you mentioned 3-8 nights and 2L of water for starters, but that doesn't sound like a desert trip to me, unless you really know you will hit filter stops along the way. How much water would you take per day for a desert backpack without the chance to filter? I've heard wildy different opinions on this.

[Jennifer Mitol]

I find that I can get by just fine on about 2-4L/day for everything, depending on how hot it is. There are quite a few dehydrated meals I make that don't require much in the way of water, and breakfast I end up eating bars and such. So the only *food* water is 3-5oz in the evening and then the rest is for my drinking.

As long as it's not too hot, I will ration quite a bit and just do 2L/day. Drink 1.5L, use .5 or less for cooking. Because if I'm carrying more water weight, I'm working more and will sweat out more and will then need to drink more – which means then I need to carry more…….see? So in my winter desert trips (which is the only time I go hiking in the desert) I can get by with quite a bit less than say, summer in the sierra…..

[Bob Gross]

Decades ago, I was heading to Hawaii to photograph a total solar eclipse. However, in order to avoid being "clouded out," I needed to be as high as possible, well above 6000 feet elevation. I knew that if I hiked up either Mauna Kea or Mauna Loa, that there was virtually zero running water. That makes a problem. I figured out that I could get the whole mission completed within four days, worst case, and that I could get by on one gallon of water per day. That was an average between hot 6000-foot lava fields and frosty 13,000-foot peaks. Four gallons of water plus some jugs, was estimated at 32 pounds. Then add camera gear with long lens and tripod, food, shelter, clothing, etc. At the start, my overall pack weighed 67 pounds.

Kids, don't do this at home. This is only for trained professionals.

I really don't know how I could have cut down on the water weight. I thought about walking only at night when it was cool, but the rocky lava trails were pretty unforgiving. Plus, everything is black on black, so you can't see much.

I got it all done and left with some water remaining.

It was a matter of using ultralightweight skills to facilitate other important things like photography.

–B.G.–

[Sumi Wada]

>> If you don't mind, you mentioned 3-8 nights and 2L of water for starters, but that doesn't sound like a desert trip to me, unless you really know you will hit filter stops along the way. How much water would you take per day for a desert backpack without the chance to filter? I've heard wildy different opinions on this.

I mentioned the 2L for reference when comparing trailhead pack weights but, obviously, it will be more if you're looking at a dry camp or carrying a water cache.

For me, how much water per day depends a lot on daytime temps. You really don't "sweat" in the desert, so it can be deceiving but you'll lose a lot more water on hot days. Also depends on duration (sustainability.) In moderate warm temps (i.e. max 80degF), if I have a 2 day stretch with a dry camp in between, I'm comfortable starting with 6L, planning 2L for the day's hike, 2L for camp/dinner/breakfast and 2L for the next day's hike. That assumes I can tank up beforehand and expect to pull into camp on day 2 slightly dehydrated. I'll incrementally add another 2L for a 2nd night. I do my very best to avoid more than 2 dry camps in a row or even a full 3rd day of hiking without a water source.

[Troy Ammons]

Yup too much Stuff and what U do have is heavy.
My Hammock Pack is roughly 10# depending.

17# base will work obviously if you want to hump that much weight but you could easily hit 12# with some easy changes and mostly leave a lot of stuff at home. Some of it is expensive.

Cuben Tarp – 6 oz, 6 Lighter Stakes 1.2 oz, lighter zpacks cord 2 oz, Tulle bug sock – 3oz, lighter tree straps – 3.4 oz, why do you need a 5×7 ground cloth ? smaller will do, lighter insul Jacket – 10oz, Essentials – reduce all that done to about 7-8 oz, reduce your water kit to 4-6 oz or so, You can do an alcohol cook set in 4-5 oz or less (lightest I have seen was sub 2oz), Zpacks Arc Blast- 17 oz, Reduce the Xtra stuff etc etc etc

Look at Loners hammock gear. He did the entire AT with the gear shown below.

I think his Base was around 9#. Simple budget setup that worked for him but personally I would have carried a better pack and a longer double layer Hammock and a Cuben Tarp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nVoX6mlmdI

[Jake D]

Troy, I have a 12-13lb base without any cuben and quite a few luxuries by BPL standards.. even Skurka gets his pack down without cuben.

summmer list. shoulder season adds a pound or so
http://www.geargrams.com/list?id=9466

[Troy Ammons]

That was just a list of things the OP could do to reduce weight and Cuben is not mandatory but Cuben tarps are nice. I have other gear sets with no cuben that are around 10-11#.

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