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has anyone tested the new Primus winter gas?
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Nov 27, 2014 at 11:27 am #1323120
According to Primus:
"For cold temperatures, we have created Winter Gas that works effectively down to -22 ° C."http://www.primus.eu/knowhow/primus-gas
Does anyone have experience with these yet?
Nov 27, 2014 at 11:41 am #2152463I'd love to get some to test, but I don't believe it will be available in the United States. The US Department of Transportation appears to have some fairly strict regulations on the maximum vapor pressure that is allowed in a canister. The best mixes available in the US are 80/20 isobutane/propane mixes. Nothing better is available in the US, but elsewhere 70/30 mixes are available. One can get 70/30 n-butane/propane mixes in the US but not isobutane/propane mixes.
I'd love to hear more about Primus' new winter gas and their evaporation enhancement system if you do come across some good testing or do testing yourself.
Nov 27, 2014 at 12:05 pm #2152474I am curious as to the % of propane and iso-butane, and if they might have beefed up the canister strength to handle perhaps a higher percentage of propane (so a heavier cartridge?).
Jim, 20/80 (MSR's) actually isn't the highest propane content fuel available in the U.S. Jetboil's fuel is 25% propane and ~72% isobutane, with some stray butane in there. This is according to JB's customer service rep. It's curious that they only put 100 grams of fuel in the small canisters though, compared with the 110 grams everyone else puts in their identical 4 ounce canisters. I noted that JB puts a bit MORE fuel in their 8 ounce canisters than the other brands do. Jetboil wouldn't deal with my questions about all this.
Nov 27, 2014 at 2:38 pm #2152503They don't give the propane/iso-butane ratio that I saw.
They mentioned something about some paper like stuff inside the canister that absorbs liquid fuel and helps it to vaporize. I don't see how that would lower the usable temperature.
Probably just marketing spin? : )
Nov 27, 2014 at 3:10 pm #2152511I'm not convinced that the JB rep knows what he's talking about.
HJ
Nov 27, 2014 at 4:28 pm #2152524On their website, they say "At temperatures of +15°C and above a conventional gas blend will overpower most stoves making them less efficient, resulting in higher fuel consumption than needed. Primus Summer Gas is optimized for summer conditions"
15 C is 59 F by the way
but wait a second, just turn your stove down if it's too high
I think they're correct that if you run your stove higher, it will be less efficient. At least in the testing I've done.
Sounds like they're just trying to create two new categories, warm and cold, and you buy the appropriate Primus fuel for each, rather than some other vendor's fuel
n-butane would work well above 15 C, their summer fuel must be n-butane
Nov 27, 2014 at 9:53 pm #2152557It's an old bit of marketing spin, and I am not sure Primus ever really tried to sell the canisters. The concept was shot down a year or two ago.
Fwiiw:
Their Power Gas mix will work fine at -22 C with an inverted canister stove – as will any other similar butane/propane mix. Nothing new there at all.Their Winter Gas canister will work pretty much EXACTLY the same as the Power Gas canister, as it has the same fuel composition. The mix is set by DoT rules and regulations regarding maximum permitted pressure. Blotting paper is not going to let them break the Gas Laws of Physics.
What Primus is hoping to sell is the idea that a bit of blotting paper inside will let the liquid fuel wick up the side of the canister and cop a bit of radiant energy from the stove, thereby evaporating better. Yeah, well, the canister will intercept the same amount of radiant energy whether it has blotting paper inside it or not.
My own opinion: it's a bit of spin thought up by some mgr in marketing who has little or NO scientific knowledge. A classic case of ego plus 'it seemed like a good idea at the time'. Anyone silly enough to try to use this at -22 C with an upright stove deserves the cold dinner they will get. The fact that Primus has not tried to push this onto the market probably reflects what their own techies told management.
Cheers
Nov 28, 2014 at 12:14 am #2152567del
Nov 28, 2014 at 12:41 am #2152569I've not seen any in the shops yet, but then it is only due to be released this month according to all the press releases.
Primus Power Gas is 25% propane, 25% iso-butane and 50% n-butane.
Primus Winter gas appears to contain only propane and iso-butane, I don't know the % yet but I'd guess that it will be similar to Jetboil. That alone would give the claimed increase in 'power' after 60 and 120 minutes use. The "down to -22C" claim could be true, but only for the first few minutes use. As the propane get used up the min temp will rise to be above the boiling point of iso-butane (-11C).
The 'VaporMesh' paper thing sounds like utter bull.
Nov 28, 2014 at 5:02 am #2152572It's an old bit of marketing spin, and I am not sure Primus ever really tried to sell the canisters. The concept was shot down a year or two ago.
Well, apparently it's back. There are press releases and all saying that it will be available in 2015 — in Europe. I did a bit of research and found that the mix will be 25% propane, 70% isobutane, and 5% n-butane which should be a pretty good mix for winter use, but I doubt it'll ever be sold here in the US; the vapor pressure is too high. If that high of pressure were allowed, MSR or Jetboil (or one of the other companies) would already be selling it.
The paper bit does seem like "snake oil" (utter fraud), but I'm keeping an open mind which is why I said I'd like some to test with. I don't see how it could have a material effect. The mix of gasses is what determines the pressure. Evaporation due to greater surface area is a real phenomenon, but I just don't see it producing pressure relevant to operating a canister stove.
Nov 28, 2014 at 5:13 am #2152575OM in the UK did a piece on this very thing, I hope to attach a link here:-
http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/gear-news/new-for-winter-2014—primus-winter-gas/13557.html
I would give it much weight, they appear to me to just regurgitate the marketing departments copy….
Nov 28, 2014 at 5:28 am #2152577Zero testing. Regurgitation indeed.
Nov 28, 2014 at 7:05 am #2152582Their Powergas will get a new mixture of purely propane and isobutane, according to them. So what will their 'winter gas' add ?
Nov 28, 2014 at 7:09 am #2152584"Primus’ new Power Gas consists of a mixture of Propane and IsoButane. It is the most versatile blend, delivering excellent power from spring to fall."
So the difference between the new Power gas and Winter gas is just the paper?
Plus the fact that Winter gas does not come in 100g canisters:Primus Winter Gas comes in brown cartridges with 230 g or 450 g of LP gas which are retailing at £6.57 and £10 respectively.
Nov 28, 2014 at 7:40 am #2152587"So the difference between the new Power gas and Winter gas is just the paper?
Plus the fact that Winter gas does not come in 100g canisters"And to think someone has worked their whole career to get to a point where they can influence such a thing.
Their mother must be so proud.Nov 28, 2014 at 11:33 am #2152638> Their Powergas will get a new mixture of purely propane and isobutane, according to
> them. So what will their 'winter gas' add ?
Blotting paper.Cheers
Nov 29, 2014 at 9:35 am #2152822And to think someone has worked their whole career to get to a point where they can influence such a thing.
Their mother must be so proud.lol.
Jan 9, 2015 at 6:10 pm #2163182I did a preliminary test with the 230g (claimed net fuel weight, total canister actual weight 380.1g) version yesterday to get a feel for how it performs in cold weather. It wasn't that cold in my laboratory (okay, the back deck of the condo)- around 19degF – but I have found such temperatures cold enough to have a distinctly observable effect on performance.
The canister was placed on a glass table on the deck for about an hour before use to make sure it was at or very close to ambient temperature, already attached to a Snow Peak Giga stove so as not to warm it with handling.
Using a Primus Eta 1.8l HX pot filled to the rim with ice cubes from the freezer and a little water in the bottom to prevent any chance of scorching, I lit the stove.
Right out of the starting gate this fuel/stove combo was extremely impressive, instantly putting out a huge amount of heat. I realize that was the propane doing its thing, but even so it performed noticeably better than a brand-new MSR canister. The ice was brought to a boil fairly quickly, although I forgot to start the timer… suffice to say it was pretty quick under the conditions.
I did a few more burns, and it got progressively less effective as the propane burned off, to the point that it behaved pretty much like any other available blended fuel canister.
So yeah, whatever contribution the blotter paper might make is short-lived.
As for efficiency relative to other stoves, I just did a boil test of 1 liter of water, starting temperature 46degF, canister starting at room temperature which was 68degF. Using the Primus Eta HX 1.8l pot, it brought the water to a rolling boil in 4min15sec while using 10.8g of fuel… which are Reactor-esque numbers for speed and fuel efficiency.
Jan 9, 2015 at 6:42 pm #2163193Very interesting, Bob! And was it clearly marked as "Winter Gas"? With a distinctive canister color? Like this:
Jan 9, 2015 at 7:10 pm #2163208Ahh, OK I didn't realize there was yet another version.
The one I got (from REI) is the "Power Gas" version… the label indicated "4 season mix" so I thought that was the "winter" version. Interesting that the label also says "Propane Isobutane Butane"
So I guess it's not surprising I didn't see the "blotter effect" after all!
.
Jan 9, 2015 at 7:18 pm #2163213Yeah, that's their "old" canister format. I'm not sure that it will be legal to have the new Winter gas here due to US Dept. of Transportation regulations. They're fairly strict as I understand it about what the max allowable pressure is. You don't see mixes better than 80/20 isobutane/propane for a reason. I'm thinking the 25/70/5 propane/isobutane/butane mix won't pass muster in the US, but I'd be delighted to be wrong. 25/70/5 would be a good winter mix — until the end of the tank when only butane is left.
Feb 12, 2015 at 8:41 am #2173674I was told that both the new Powergas and the Wintergas will have a composition of 20% propane and 80% i-butane, the only difference being the addition of this 'vapour mesh' to Wintergas.
Feb 12, 2015 at 1:34 pm #2173782Chuckle.
Word is that Primus Head Office Marketing may not be real happy about my comments (or others' comments) about the value of blotting paper.
Tough.Cheers
Feb 12, 2015 at 1:40 pm #2173784The whole concept is probably easy to prove, one way or the other.
–B.G.–
Feb 12, 2015 at 5:29 pm #2173841Would there not at least be one advantage to the paper barrier if it acted as a filter and prevented any junk floating around in tbe cannister from getting in the valve during inverted use?
It could be that years ago,some PRIMUS engineer dreamed it up for just that purpose and over time, it got co-opted by some Marketing wanker as a "magic " performance enhancing feature?
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