Clothes for camp chores in winter

[Sven N]

It will be between 20F (day avg) and 10F (night avg) with exceptional lows at 0F.
I'll be wearing a 200-weight merino base layer, an R1 hoody, a patagonia UL down hoody and a shell during my camp chores.

What should I add to my upper-body to not get cold during these camp chores? Or would this clothing system already be sufficient? (I'm a male and I don't tend to get cold more easily than the average person).

[Link .]

Podcast: Andrew Skurka in the Nation's Icebox

Nations Icebox Gearlist

A New Paradigm for Understanding Garment Warmth

Backpacking Light's Andrew Skurka on Vapor Barrier Liners: What they are, how they work, and when to use them

Winter Backpacking Checklist (Gear List)

Spring Snow Trekking Gear List

The Art Of Not Suffering

Cold Weather Clothing

Notes from the Field: The Wintry Fringe Season in the Anaconda-Pintler Wilderness

Ultralight Gear and Techniques on the Edge of Winter with Backpacking Light’s Wilderness Trekking III Program

Fast and Light Winter Travel

Winter Backpacking Comfort: Lightweight Gear and Techniques for Shelter, Clothing, and Sleep Systems

[Andy F]

I would replace the down hoody with a fairly thick down jacket or parka.

Backyard testing is the only way to know for sure, since everyone's metabolism is different.

[Paul Magnanti]

For winter backpacking, I'll echo the thought you'll need/want a real down parka and not the "down sweaters".

If you are performing more camping chores, esp with a group, a pair of leather gloves with a fleece or wool liner glove is really nice to have. Melting snow, building the camp, etc. tends to make shells wet. Amazing how resistant leather is to the snow.

A great website I've mentioned before. Not everything applies, but still some great ideas:
http://wintertrekking.com/clothing/

[Sven N]

Thanks for the great replies!
Actually, I'm not really interested in VBL at those relative soft winter temperatures.

What kind of fill weight should I consider for the parka suggested here by Andy & Paul? (@800FP, & considering I leave the UL down hoody home)

I can see at the link mentioned by @Link above (spring snow) skurka is doing it with just a sweater too.
And @Nisleys paradigm suggests the UL down hoody has a clo of at least 2.3, the R1 0.32 and the merino baselayer has probably at least 0.2. That would make a total of 2.8 According to a diagram I found on this site (i lost the link…) this iclo is enough for camp chores at 10F… Then why is it suggested above to bring a warmer parka anyway?

[Link .]

Sven, The 14 oz Golite Cumulus Sweater as Andrew calls it is a down jacket

[Paul Magnanti]

I strongly suggest getting one with a hood. Much warmer.

Something like the Montbell Frostline or similar (I use a GoLite Bitteroot myself)

FWIW, I assist Andrew with the winter backpacking trips we do every year.
(Shameless plug, I'll be helping out again this winter: http://andrewskurka.com/guided-trips/winter-backpacking/ ), and we both use similar hooded winter parkas for in camp:

http://www.pmags.com/winter-in-the-park-andrew-skurkas-winter-backpacking-trip
http://www.pmags.com/winter-backpacking-in-rocky-mountain-national-park

These trips are in later winter and the temp ranges are about what you said.

[Link .]

+1 Definitely have a hood

[Robert Blean]

You have not said what kind of trip you are taking and what your goals are. Depending on that sort of information a lighter weight solution might be to re-examine why you are operating in a way that requires the warmer clothes to begin with.

–MV

[Justin Baker]

Ok, what do you mean by camp chores? Do you mean hiking all day without stopping much and then getting the tent/campsite set up immediately after stopping and then cooking dinner in your sleeping bag?
If you want something that allows you to sit down mid day and cook lunch or melt snow then you would want something with 5+ ounces of down at 20 degrees.
Those ultralight down hoodies have a low warmth per weight because of the base weight of their shell fabric. You can considerably up the warmth with not that much weight gain once you get into heavier parkas.

[Andy F]

Sven,

At those temps, I just use a (550 fp?) down jacket from Meijer (superstore chain) which was about $25 and around 28 oz total weight for size XXL. (I wear XL, but went oversize for loose and better fit.) The lower quality down is slightly better at resisting loft loss from moisture. I did add a drawcord channel near the bottom to prevent drafts due to it being oversized.

I'm comfortable down to 10F to sit and eat a quick dinner with other appropriate clothing and my hiking layers.

At 0F without a campfire, I'd either need to keep moving, stuff sleeping bag in shell jacket, or call it a night.

[Sven N]

Thanks again for adding all your wonderful insights! If it gets below 10 I'd jump straight to bed. Otherwise setting up camp, some cooking, having a look around camp (relaxed walk), etc. Always some movement involved.
Just wondering, if I'd add a synthetic puffy could it do it, in combination with the ul down hoody?

[Bob Moulder]

>>>Just wondering, if I'd add a synthetic puffy could it do it, in combination with the ul down hoody?

That's actually not a bad idea, but make sure the outer layer is the synthetic (with built-in hood) and that it fits easily over all other layers. Tight-fitting layers have greatly reduced insulating capability.

You specifically requested upper-body recommendations, so I assume you are aware of the tremendous amount of heat that can also be lost from legs, feet, hands and head. All of these are very important factors as well.

[Richard May]

Okay, so I'm thinking of a puffy for the same temperature range. I have trouble understanding what it means for a garment to have "X"oz down. It's easier for me grasp loft.

How much loft would a jacket need for these temps need?

This article would suggest 2.6in (6.6cm) for the single layer of a sleeping bag. I would presume that for a jacket lower loft would be suitable since I'd be moving around.

[Link .]

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[Tjaard Breeuwer]

Richard,
I would strongly suggest 'grasping' fill weight.
The first reason is that loft and warmth are only loosely correlated. This may be in part due to the fact that loft is very hard to define, since a down garment tends to have some sort ridge like surface due to the baffling.
Granted, fill weight alone is not always correlated very well with warmth either, but it seems to be closer.

Most importantly, fill weight is easy to find(most decent lightweight manufacturers list it), where as loft is not, and as mentioned above, is not that easy to measure.

I would suggest about 6 oz of down for a winter parka. More is always nicer, but off course weight and price goes up.
I'd echo the comments about a hood and add that you want to make sure it's long enough. Since you will be using this while sitting, the last thing you want is an exposed back.
Many lightweight jackets are fairly short, so make sure you hunker down with the jacket as if you were cooking and check coverage.
By the same token sleeves should be long enough.

A more wind proof shell will add warmth, but add weight and reduce breathability. Baffles will add weight but also warmth. For me, a simple elastic baton is sufficient, since I don't ever feel the need to vent this jacket, other than unzipping it.

I think it should be just big enough to fit over your 'action suit' ie the shell and base layer you'd be wearing while moving. Not much bigger as overly loose parkas tend to loose a lot of warm air to the belllows effect, and make it hard to put a shell on over them if needed.

[Sven N]

Ok, so a 5 to 6 oz down jacket it will be.
Unfortunately MontBell is hard to get in Europe (which is where I live).
What brand would you advise me to look at?
I checked Rab already, but thy're either below 5 oz or above 6 oz fill.

[Richard May]

Thanks Tjaard.

I guess the problem I have with fill weight is that it doesn't seem consistent. 5oz of down in a small jacket isn't the same as 5oz of down in a large parka. That fill will occupy different volumes in each garment. Besides it's confusing if comparing 600fp down with 850fp with synthetic. It is useful for a weight:warmth data point.

Maybe I'm missing something.

Loft can be used to describe warmth (albeit imperfectly) across materials and down FP.

At the moment my budget probably won't allow for 850fp down… so I'll be looking at the cheaper and heavier options. An idea of loft will be more useful to me. I think.

[Anonymous]

If you're being relatively inactive, i would rethink the VBL, especially for any kind of longer trip, because in camp, and especially sleeping it will help to protect your insulation layers, while adding some warmth at low weight (if you use silnylon).

I don't like VBL for temps around 20 or above, but it's not bad when it gets around 17 or colder. I have yet to experience the kind of temps that i would need a VBL when active. Coldest i've ever been in was -20 F* but that wasn't backpacking, just walking around Quebec City in winter.

The weight penalty for a silnylon top is pretty low, like around 2 oz. Considering how much it does at so little weight, it's worth at least bringing. However, i would use a thinner wool baselayer with it, so your baselayer will dry out faster. A thinner, wool-synthetic blend like Rab MeCo would be nice.

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