Can I Cook in my Tent?

[Mole J]

Bob G
Monatauk Gnat is a rebadged Fire Maple FMS-116T also sold under several other badges. At quite a range of prices.

no knock off involved as far as I am aware. The only people getting short changed are the ones who buy at top end of the the price range – like those who buy Monatauk (e.g. I bought mine for =$20 in 2010 – badged as a HiGear Blaze. It's also available at that price under the Karrimor X lite badge in the UK – various stores sell the Monatauk and another brand at =$60!)

[Window walker]

"The square bit on the 300T should NEVER touch the rim. There should always be a gap."

I too have noticed that the square part of my 300T often touches the rim of the canister, but never to the point that the stove comes apart. I never thought this was a concern, I just don't tighten it any further once it touches.

Roger, are you saying that the 300T should not be tightened that far? I guess I need to experiment to see how far it needs to be tightened to release gas. I typically use Snow Peak canisters.

[Roger Caffin]

> that the 300T should not be tightened that far
It should not.
The nipple should always be sticking up by at least 1 mm, if not a bit more.
You only need to compress the O-ring a little bit.

Snow Peak canisters USED to be good, but I have read that they are now rebadging Chinese canisters. IF that is the case (I have not bought any recently) then I would be very careful – and maybe change brands. Check to see if there is a 'made in China' label somewhere.

Cheers

[St. Effen]

Excellent job, Roger!

"A blow torch inside the house? Shock horror, we will all die!" – what a priceless parody!

After reading the article, I thought sharing anecdotal "wisdom" could be fun. When I had started writing, the whole stuff pretty soon emerged as a mess of boring totally self-referential blah, so I nixed it all. The bottom line:

1) RTFM, acknowledging the CYA statements for what they are
2) get hands-on experience and educate yourself before the trip
3) act with sound judgement, take “conventional wisdom“ with a grain of salt

If snow is piling up around your tent proper ventilation will really become essential.

Cheers
Steffen

[Jerry Adams]

I occasionally use canister stove in my floorless pyramid. Leave door open and fastened with velcro fastners.

Maybe the stove is actually under the tent. Maybe the wind is blowing from the other direction so the rain doesn't fall on stove. Maybe rain is actually falling on stove – doesn't really matter if there's a pot on it. When I remove the pot, I move the stove over so it's protected.

There's so much ventilation CO isn't an issue.

If nylon tent material was flapping around and got into the flame it would be a problem, but with the door fastened open with velcro strips, this isn't really a problem.

If the wind was blowing hard and there was heavy rain, it would be more difficult.

[Roger Caffin]

> I occasionally use canister stove in my floorless pyramid.
Yeah, that works – mostly.

I do remember one time when we had >1" of water under the tent though. Yep, the bathtub groundsheet was doing its best to float away. OK, pretty heavy rain. I had everything inside the bathtub, even our shoes. We had got into the tent just as the storm broke, so our shoes were fairly dry even! I piled the shoes up, put the stove baseboard on top, wedged things around, and cooked dinner. Carefully.

Curiously, my wife sitting up the other end of the tent on her air mat couldn't see what the fuss was about. The groundsheet was waterproof – end of story.

Cheers

[Hikin’ Jim]

I sense a little hypocrisy from MSR as they refuse to acknowledge that cooking in a tent is relatively safe while they will happily make and sell you a hanging kit to let you cook in your tent. I think their legal defense could be compromised.

The legal system in the US leaves companies with little choice. They have to strenuously argue that cooking in a tent is intrinsically unsafe and that anyone who does it has breached normal practice. To do otherwise is to commit corporate suicide given the legal system in the US.

MSR sells the hanging kit for "big wall" climbers and the like. I'm sure their view would be that anyone using a hanging kit in a tent is going against advice and has no standing to sue.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving
Hikin' Jim's Blog

[Hikin’ Jim]

Snow Peak canisters USED to be good, but I have read that they are now rebadging Chinese canisters. IF that is the case (I have not bought any recently) then I would be very careful – and maybe change brands. Check to see if there is a 'made in China' label somewhere.

Well, obviously, I can't be everywhere, and I can't see every canister, but the Snow Peak canisters I'm seeing now in the US are all made in Korea. In fact ALL the backpacking type threaded canisters I see available in the US are made in Korea except Coleman which is labeled "made in France". The injection moulding markings on the caps are all the same, so presumably all of the canisters are made in the same factory although it's possible that two Korean companies could have the same cap making machines.

Note the caps. Identical moulding markings:

Here are the brands that I've seen:
MSR
Brunton (I believe. Haven't seen one lately. No one around here carries them anymore.)
Optimus
Primus
Jetboil
GasOne
Snow Peak

The only brand I'm not sure about is the rather obscure Glowmaster which is made in Korea, but is carried by relatively few shops. I'll check next time I'm by a shop that carries that brand.

Here's the old Snow Peak (labeled "made in Japan") and the new (labeled "made in Korea"). Note that the molding markings are the same as in the photo above.

Supposedly there are multiple gas canister makers in Korea, but it sure looks like one of them has cornered the US market.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving
Hikin' Jim's Blog

[Jerry Adams]

Another brand, made in Korea:

Looks like your other ones

"Burton" brand that Fred Meyer sells for $1 less than others

It doesn't say it, but it contains isobutane/propane mixture

[Gary Dunckel]

Jerry, if it doesn't say so on the canister, how do you know that it's actually iso-butane/propane?

[Hikin’ Jim]

The Burton canister MSDS states that it's 80/20 n-butane/propane. This MSDS is from July 2011, so it's possible that things could change.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving
Hikin' Jim's Blog

[Jerry Adams]

When I use it at 25F it still works. If it was butane, it wouldn't.

It would be better if it identified the contents.

I've been using them for more than a year, including winters. I frequently go out when it's close to or below 32F. I use up the last little bit of the canister.

I suppose it doesn't matter what's in it, it works for me.

[Jerry Adams]

hmmm… MSDS says n-butane

the cash register receipt said it was butane/propane but didn't say whether it was iso or n

if it was n-butane, it would not work at 32 F, including using up the entire canister

note that the cap is identical to your others

maybe at some point in this "argument" I'll just have to revert to it works for me : )

[Hikin’ Jim]

When I use it at 25F it still works. If it was butane, it wouldn't.

Well, maybe. Depends on how much propane content is still in the canister. Depends on whether or not you started with the canister warm. Depends on how long you cook and at what setting (well, it really depends on how much fuel goes through the phase change from liquid to vapor, but that's pretty correlated to how long you cook and at what setting). Depends on if your stove transmits any heat back to the canister. Depends on whether or not you insulated the canister from the ground.

In other words, there are a lot of factors at play here, factors other than just the fuel alone.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving
Hikin' Jim's Blog

[Elliott Wolin]

Two related questions arose while reading this very nice article:

1) Years ago I purchased some sort of fire paste in a tube that was used to prime white gas stoves in the winter. You squeezed out a bit into the cup or under a heater tube or whatever, lit it, waited a little, then carefully opened the stove valve and voila, your stove would be running. No flare-ups, no spilled white gas. I just checked and Coghlans still makes it. Couldn't this help a lot with white gas stoves in a tent? Also might help with canister stoves that have a heater tube.

2) Kerosene stoves used to be primed with alcohol, I imagine white gas stoves can be as well although I've never heard it discussed. Any reason this won't work?

As an aside, years ago I used to use a double A-frame tent in the winter that had a large vestibule outside the tent proper formed by the rain fly. I'd arrange small snow blocks all around the vestibule end of the tent to keep the wind out, then sit in the tent but cook in the vestibule. I usually hung a candle lantern from the ridge guy right above the cooking area. There was plenty of ventilation despite the snow blocks and most of the vapors rose up and went around the tent instead of inside.

[Ross Mellows]

I still prime kero stoves with alcohol although for backpacking I've used paste/gel as less likely to spill.

It'll work fine with white gas as long as you don't mind carrying it.

[Roger Caffin]

> Couldn't this help a lot with white gas stoves in a tent? Also might help with
> canister stoves that have a heater tube.
Yes & yes.

> Kerosene stoves used to be primed with alcohol, I imagine white gas stoves can be as
> well
Yes.

Cheers

[K. Urs Grütter, LL.M.]

Thanks a lot for this analysis!
I am concerned about the bear issue, but it probably boils (pun intended) down to the following:
– If you are in bear country, follow Billy Ray (and eat cold if required);
– if you are well up above tree line, you will probably be out of bear roaming. I think bears will not do any substantial climbing for hiker food and keep closer to elk/deer populations.

Of course I would never carry a tent / tarp into bear country, where I cooked in. Even if I can't smell it, the bear will.

Keep up the good work!
Urs

[Scott Chandler]

Your arguments for cooking in your tent are valid on several points, but I still want to see someone conduct a proper experiment on just how much CO accumulates inside the tent. Cooking inside a 1500-2000 square foot house might not compare to a tent that barely contains a 24″ wide air mattress. I believe there was someone here that tested various canister stoves for CO and some were quite safe and others produced large amounts of CO. I suspect that constantly melting snow would be considerably more dangerous than merely boiling up water for dinner and tea. Until there is some quantitative numbers showing the relative safety/danger of CO in a small tent, please air (pun intended) on the side of caution when it comes to ventilation.

[DWR D]

And….. it may  not be just a matter of CO killing you or not killing you… there is some thinking that even low levels of CO can reduce your brain function… perhaps permanently… lack of oxygen to brain cells for long enough can kill them… killing a few brain cells here and a few there can add up… Me, I like the freshest air I can get…

[AK Granola]

I’m fascinated by the arrogance of people who spout their own “knowledge” of bear behavior that they believe is superior to that of real, actual researchers who study bears, or to public land managers trying to clean up messes left by careless hikers. Because you have never had a problem with bears by cooking, eating and storing food in your tent, when you are deep within bear habitat, means you got very lucky.  You may always get lucky, but you may not, and the one time you don’t, means you have just caused a huge problem for everyone around you. Doesn’t that matter any more? Don’t we owe each other something when using public lands or public spaces?

When I hiked through Desolation Wilderness this summer, I was stopped by two rangers who tapped my pack for a bear canister, new regulations. The large number of PCT hikers passing through without bear cans, storing food in their tents because of dubious advice found on the internet like “put it under your pillow,” has caused a lot of problems around popular lakes and camping areas.  Bears will probably need to be shot as a result. Other campers in the area now are on high alert.  One PCTer this summer camped well away from popular areas and still had a scary visit by an aggressive bear. Bears roam large areas including the popular campsites, and can find you far from them.

If you are cooking in your tent in an area with no wildlife issues, fine. I can guarantee you that bears can smell the food in the silnylon weeks later; whether or not they decide that’s worth investigating, who knows. You’re backpacking; consider just dealing with whatever weather you encounter and do the right thing regardless.

[Henry Shires / Tarptent]

In bear country, don’t camp where you cook and do what you can to not camp in established campsites (rules/regs permitting). Bears are habitual and return to where they previously found food.

-H

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