goretex socks vs overboots

[chris smead]

Few winter footwear threads going on here, but I've got it narrowed to 2 options and hoping someone can help me solve this argument with myself.

What's a better footwear system for deep snow:
1: Breathable trail runners with goretex socks, wool socks/liners.
Vs
2: Overboots (like 40 below), then breathable trail runners and wool socks/liners

[Nick Gatel]

If you haven't read Will R's 3 part series on winter footwear, it will probably help you decide what is best.

[Justin Baker]

I think you want both.
There will be times where you are walking on dirt or light snow. The overboots are supposed to be used on snow with snowshoes or crampons. Maybe it's too warm to be using the overboots. Like if you are starting at a valley floor at 5,000 feet and heading up to 10,000 feet.
But I am also a snow camping noob. These are just my thoughts. I plan on using goretex socks in shoes and then adding the overboots as needed.

[chris smead]

I'm definitly interested in reading that series.
Can you post a link? Will R?

[Justin Baker]

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/lightweight_footwear_systems_for_snow_travel_part_1.html#.VFh2uclg_cQ

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/lightweight_footwear_systems_for_snow_travel_part_2

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/lightweight_footwear_systems_for_snow_travel_part_3.html

[Bob Moulder]

It's all about keeping the insulating layers dry.

1 – Liner sock (something like Coolmax)
2 – Vapor Barrier Liner (VBL), as in totally impermeable, not allowing water or water vapor passage (GTX is NOT a VBL)
3 – Wool or wool blend sock
4 – Boot or trail shoe with impermeable outer layer (NOT mesh with GTX layer)
and/or
5 – Impermeable overboot/gaiter

GTX socks sound like a good idea but they don't work – foot wets the inner sock anyway, and moisture passing through the GTX membrane condenses in the outer sock and boot lining/insulation. Not good.

The above system keeps the insulating layers dry by preventing the passage of moisture from the feet and from the outside. VBL is critically important.

[Justin Baker]

Bob, goretex socks aren't meant to be used as vapor barriers. They go over your insulating socks to keep them dry from outside moisture.

[chris smead]

I've always steered away from VBL's because I was thinking it would drench my foot and liner sock and feel uncomfortable….Sounds like I need to re-think that. (I've only done a handful of winter trips, so lacking experience here)
Is it more comfortable than it sounds?

[Bob Moulder]

>>>They go over your insulating socks to keep them dry from outside moisture.

Yes, that's my point — your socks still get wet from *the inside* due to foot perspiration, and your boots/liners will also eventually get wet from the water vapor that passes through the GTX membrane.

[Justin Baker]

Bob, goretex socks are for use in non waterproof shoes. I don't see how they would serve any purpose in a waterproof winter boot.
If you want to keep your perspiration out of your socks and winter boot lining you can use an actual vapor barrier next to your skin.
Or you can use vapor barriers with goretex socks in a non wateproof shoe to keep your socks dry for extra warmth and protection.

[Bob Moulder]

>>>I've always steered away from VBL's because I was thinking it would drench my foot and liner sock and feel uncomfortable….Sounds like I need to re-think that. (I've only done a handful of winter trips, so lacking experience here)
Is it more comfortable than it sounds?

Just keep in mind that your feet are always producing moisture (liquid and vapor) and that it has to go somewhere… that being into your socks and boots, so your whole system will get drenched eventually. VBLs confine it to your feet.

Yes, it can be quite clammy and perhaps annoying at first, but at least your feet will be warm and your insulating layers will be dry.

If you are limiting yourself to day hikes or hut-to-hut when socks/footwear can be dried out each evening, you can probably forgo VBLs. If you do this in sustained very cold (say 10F and lower), after a few days keeping your feet warm gets more and more difficult as ice accumulates in your system. If it's -10F and your feet are wet, you're going to be in a world of hurt.

[Nick Gatel]

It might be good for all to closely read the 3 part series. I rarely use anything WBP/GoreTex, but in winter in the right conditions I have used Will's system with good success. I realize I don't have as much experience in cold weather & snow as many BPL members, but over the past few years the liner / wool sock / Rocky Sock / breathable trail runner / gaiter combination has worked well in southern Calif & southern Sierra snow trips. I never am out for more than 4 days at a time. YMMV.

[Bob Moulder]

>>>Or you can use vapor barriers with goretex socks in a non wateproof shoe to keep your socks dry for extra warmth and protection.

Per the OP this system is for use in "deep snow"

A waterproof boot/gaiter combination OR trail runners using VBLs and overboots are the choices. Wet/frozen footwear (whether boots or trail runners) will suck the heat out of your feet in a hurry.

GTX socks might have an application in a very limited range of temperature/humidity/snow conditions, but not for sustained cold and deep snow.

So the information is there and it's easy enough to go out and test for yourself.

[Jim Colten]

Repeating Bob's reminder:
What's a better footwear system for deep snow:
and I'd add that the question was not about mountaineering (where I'm told that footwear is a whole different discussion).

For a day trip of a few hours in less than extreme conditions it won't matter much what you use … what's a few hours of discomfort when you'll retreat to a warm dry place. What's extreme? I'd say below 0F.

For multiple days in deep snow I suggest reading Bob's replies above plus Will R's articles. In deep snow without overboots of some kind the snow will permeate the fabric and your boots will eventually become blocks of ice … regardless of what you have inside. How do I know this? Allow me to confess that I don't have to imagine the process of thawing boots over a pot of steaming oatmeal;-)

[Bob Moulder]

There's nothing quite like the voice of experience.

No offense to anyone, but ease your way into this if you haven't seen serious cold for several days in a row.

[Justin Baker]

Bob, I am trying to explain how goretex socks are used. I'm not trying to argue that they are good or bad for deep snow because I have very little experience in deep snow.

I only have experience using goretex socks in some really wet and sloppy conditions and they were great. I post holed into slush and I was able to change into dry socks and have dry feet.

[Bob Moulder]

Justin, the OP requested input regarding deep snow. Deep snow indicates dry and fresh and therefore much colder air temps which normally ensue after the low-pressure frontal systems that produce snowfall.

Slush indicates that serious cold is not involved.

I have slogged through "mashed potatoes" on a few Cascades glaciers (Baker, Glacier, Shuksan, etc) in the afternoon, and this is not serious cold. It is downright balmy.

Serious cold = 7 days in a row when the high is -10F. (And the guys in AK laugh at this.)

Use whatever system you think best, but my advice is to do all your research and then "sneak up on it" conservatively the way you would with any new endeavor.

[Andy F]

I use GoreTex socks with mesh trail runners in the winter in deep snow, but the cold limit on that for me is about 15F if I'm using a VBL and don't stop for more than 15 min. The GoreTex socks keep my insulation dry from the outside. But, after a day, the shoes are wet and cold. That keeps the limit at 15F for overnight trips. I switch to a waterproof rubber mukluk with removable liner below that limit. (edit: and VBL sock of course)

At around 25F and above, I don't generally use a VBL with the GoreTex socks.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Thus sayeth the Frost God.

1st Commandment of winter footwear safety-> "Ye MUST keep winter footwear insulation dry."

To do this you need a VBL
My VBL is a seam sealed thin neoprene diver's sock. I wear synthetic liner socks under them.

My boots all are waterproof. i.e. NEOS, Felt pacs, Plastic Tele ski boots.

All have removable liners so I can put them in my sleeping bag in a stuff sack to keep them warm and dry from body moisture.

Go forth and sin no more against your feet.

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