Please critque my winter clothing/ sleep system.

[nleve0778@ gmail.com]

Hey Backpacking light, I’m in need of a critique. The following is my prospective winter gear list, both clothing and sleep system. I’ve done a few winter outings in the past, some military field exercises, and some overnighters for fun, but I’ve not done any extended trips below 20 degrees. This winter I’d like to do some multi-day/ week long trips in conditions that could drop below zero when the sun goes down (I’m in the southern Rockies). I think I’ve managed to amass a comprehensive winter system, but I’d like to be certain.

You’ll notice that my kit has some limitations/ drawbacks, but I’m hoping they won’t be a hindrance. For one, I know I’m not “light,” by this forum’s standards. Bear in mind, I’m not really looking for advice on how to cut weight (unless I’m way over packed)… Frankly, a lot of my gear is stuff I wear every day, and some things, like my BD patrol gloves, are stupid heavy, but I use them when I ride my motorcycle in the cold, so I can’t justify converting to a lightweight down mitten. Another major drawback is my sleeping system, I know the MMS bag, even though I’ve chopped it into a no frills quilt, is heavy, plus I’m using it inside my down bag, which, if I understand correctly, is not right? My down bag won’t loft otherwise, and I can’t afford another quilt, so I’m kind of stuck, at least for this season. I’m sure the experts here can point out a hundred other flaws, and please do.

My biggest concerns are as follows: I need a torso pad that will bolster my R-rating to above 5, but keep my pad weight around 16oz. I’m pretty sure I’ll be good while sleeping, but how about while static, around camp? I’ll likely have a fire, but I don’t want to be reliant upon it. Speaking of fire, on a multi-day trip, should I look into a vapor barrier of some kind, or rely on a fire for drying out my stuff? How bad is it to use a synthetic bag inside of a down, and not the other way around? Overall, What do you guy’s think, will this system work?

Headgear-Arc’teryx Rho AR balaclava
Sherpa wool hat with Polartec liner

Top- Patagonia merino 1 long sleeve
REI synthetic T-shirt
100% wool button up
Arc’teryx Lorum hoody (Polartec, similar weight to their Rho stuff)
Arc’teryx Atom Lt hoody
Marmot minimalist

Gloves- OR liner gloves
Black Diamond patrol gloves

Bottom- Under armor shorts
Patagonia Cap1
Arc’teryx Rho
Softshell pant (varies)
Marmot minimalist

Footwear- Darn Tough boot socks
SmartWool mountaineering socks
Asolo Fugitive GTX
OR gaiters

Sleep system- Bora Gear Snowyside
Ridgerest solar R-2.8 (torso)
Toro pad with R-value above 2 (haven’t decide which yet)
Usgi ecws intermediate bag -10 synthetic (converted to a quilt, it’s good to 20 degrees)
Feathered Friends Kestral 30 degree down

[David Chenault]

I'm tailoring these comments to trips in NM with nights a bit below zero F.

I don't see a bit puffy jacket, and I think you'll want one both for camp and sleeping. Something with 8+ oz of quality down. I realize it's a matter of practicality, but the lighter insulating layers you list aren't going to be prodigiously warm.

Ditch the bivy. Condensation in the cold can be very bad indeed, and you'll loose more than you gain with the bivy.

VBLs probably won't be necessary in NM, as most of the time you'll be able to count on sun to dry gear mid day.

Do you have enough space in your boots for those socks? I'd be a warm combo, but nothing is warm if your toes don't have plenty of space to move. If you don't and want to boost warm in existing boots, a thinner sock and a VBL sock are worth trying.

I use a full-length thermarest and torso length ridgerest for winter camping. Gives me an R over 6 in the torso, some redundancy, and the foam is nice for sitting in the snow.

[nleve0778@ gmail.com]

Thank you, David. I'll look into swapping out my Atom Lt for something more substantial; kind of figured that was coming. I'll ditch the bivy where there's no/light snow, but I really want to try some snow shelters this winter, and frankly, I've heard good things about the Snowyside (limited condensation in cold temps, etc.). I here ya on the VBL too, I was hoping just the sun would suffice; I can supplement with a fire too. As far as the boots are concerned, I wear the darn tough socks while moving, and I use the mountaineering socks while static and sleeping (think that'll work? I often wear a thin dress sock too, to wick moisture). Now sleeping pads: my synthetic bag's foot box is double insulated, I'll have my down bag over that, plus I'll be wearing heavy socks. Think I can get away with two torso pads (somewhere around R-6) and just use my backpack under my feet (I use a heavy mystery ranch, internal frame)? Thanks again for your time, David. It's much appreciated; even more so this winter, when I'm NOT freezing my ass off.

Edit: should I be looking into down pants as well, or do I look ok?

[Travis B.]

Hey Dave,

Why do you not recommend using a bivy in the winter? I've never used one myself, but my understanding is that a bivy works great for reducing moisture in your sleeping bag. The way it's been explained to me is that rather than having the condensation build up in your sleeping bag it accumulates on the inside of the bivy and freezes. Then in the morning you just have to turn the bivy inside out and shake off all of the frost. I was planning on trying it out myself this winter. What has been your experience with bivys in winter?

[David Chenault]

If you have warm feet, thick socks should work down to zero. The key part will be keeping the boots dry so they don't freeze overnight. Dry NM snow and gaiters should do the trick.

My experience with bivy sacks in winter is that they freeze to my sleeping bag and get it a lot wetter. Using a synthetic overbag/quilt can move the dew point into the synthetic layer and thus save the down, but I can't see a simple layer of fabric doing anything functionally comparable.

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