Winter Footwear Solutions

[Travis B.]

With our first snow two days ago and a temperature of -10C at the cabin this morning my mind is dancing with thoughts of winter. I know footwear is a subject that's been beaten to death on BPL, but bear with me.

I'm looking to find a modular cold weather system that'll be adaptable to snowshoeing, winter camping, ice fishing, and general duties around the cabin. Maybe even xs skiing. Impossible? Maybe.

I live in the southern Yukon and the climate i'll be travelling in is as follows:

December, January, February – I spend most of the coldest and darkest part of the year in the boreal forest. The moisture of coastal alaska stops at the coastal mountain range. In the southern and central Yukon, it is semi-arid which means dry, granular snow (i've post-holed up to my waist with snowshoes before) and deep cold. Most travel will be on large lakes, and a mix of rocky and rolling hills. Lots of day trips showshoeing or skiing on the lake and the surrounding hills. We'll often ski or snowshoe 5-10km's and spend the day ice fishing. Coldest temperature I've been out in is -38C, though it's common to go through spells where it can be -30C or below for days on end. Overnight camping during this period is usually to test gear out. It's hard to want to camp outside when I have a warm cabin to go home to at night.

November, March, April – Longer days and warmer conditions means we like to get up into the alpine more. Day and overnight trips are possible and we spend more time in the coastal mountains and the Kluane/St. Elias Mountain range. We have been up to elevations of about 2200m during these months, so have to consider the variables of mountain weather/terrain challenges.

I understand that Forty Below and Neos are pretty much the only overboots in the game right now that might fit my needs. Here is what I'm thinking for my system:

-liner sock
-vpl (for overnights or when necessary)
-thick wool sock
-Salomon XA Pro 3D runners w/ GTX
-OR gaiters (knee high)

I used this system running last year and feel like this will suffice down to about -20C when active. I'm thinking about adding the Forty Below TR shorty overboot AND a pair of NEOS Trekkers.

Here's my logic – For trips in the mountains in early or late winter or when I don't need to worry about overflow or water, I can take just the FB overboots. If it's overnight I can add my MEC booties for around camp. Then, when it's really cold and if we are going to be in areas with overflow, or will be sitting around ice fishing I can take both the FB overboots and a pair of NEO Trekker's to go over them. I'd generally snowshoe in the FB overboots and then when we are not mobile I'll throw on the NEO's for waterproofness and additional warmth. I can also use the NEO's around the cabin for shovelling, wood splitting, and other chores.

Has anyone ever tried this? Do you think the FB overboots would fit inside oversized NEO's, and would this system keep you warm at -30C for sustained periods?

Any input would be appreciated.

Cheers…

[Jim Colten]

Hi Travis,

Here in MN we have less cold that you (less in quantity and quality!) but it doesn't take much imagination to bridge the temperature gap and post-holing in snow shoes requires no imagination at all.

My experience has been with Inov-8 390 GTX two sizes larger than I normally wear with the insole replaced with 1/4 inch (6.5mm) wool felt insoles, VBL socks, wool socks and gaiters. The oversized shoes have lots of room for multiple sock layers.

I think you have a workable idea.

I don't know if FB boots will fit inside NEOS but ask the NEOS folks … they hype that they go on easily other footwear.

With FB overboots you may not need trail runners sized up, or sized up as much as I use.

Some comments from my experience:

1) for multi-day outings with snow spilling on top of your snowshoes you'll definitely want some sort of overboot. Without them snow impregnates the fabric of the trail runners and they ice up.

2) VBL socks are worth it even for day outings. Best if they extend above the top of the socks a little. I'm toying with the idea of running VBL socks up higher than my high calf gaiters this winter.

3) With overboots I'd skip the GTX in the trail runners unless you'd want it there for other uses. YMMV but the only time I find myself wanting GTX footwear is wet conditions with temp in the 0C->10C range.

I've been looking at overboots due to the above mentioned icing issue and concern about overflow. If I go waterproof like the NEOS trekkers I'll definitely try extending my VBL socks up that high to limit (avoid?) frozen water vapor inside.

Pls report back with results of whatever you choose.

[Roger Caffin]

> for multi-day outings with snow spilling on top of your snowshoes you'll definitely
> want some sort of overboot.
I agree, and I found that even light coated nylon fabric was enough. Something just a shade heavier than silnylon worked well. Yes – MYOG again.

Cheers

[Travis B.]

Hey Jim,

Thanks for the advice. My shoes are oversized so that I can comfortable get enough layers in them to keep me warm. I bought the GTX shoes because last year we were doing some winter running, and even with high levels of exertion I found that non-waterproof trail runners got very cold on windy days. I was hoping the GTX versions would offer a bit of additional warmth and wind protection. Of course, I forgot that waterproof shoes aren't usually waterproof anyways! I was out for a 25km hike yesterday in 4-5inches of wet snow with my runners and OR gaiters and at the end of the hike my feet were soaked up to a couple inches past my ankles, and it wasn't from sweat. Maybe a light material over the shoe like Roger mentioned would help with that.

Honestly, it'd be easiest just to pick up a pair of NEO Trekkers, but it's the moisture build up inside of them while active that i'm worried about. And I still don't think that just my trail runners and NEO's would keep me warm while ice fishing and sitting around at camp.

Either way, I love winter and these are good problems to have!

[Bob Moulder]

Wow, I didn't realize FB had so many flavors of overboot! Which ones?

I am also interested in something that can work with trail runners and accommodate snowshoes and micro spikes.

If it got the point that full-on crampons were needed, I'd use something else. I've got Scarpa Invernos, but that's a whole different discussion.

[Randy Nelson]

"Wow, I didn't realize FB had so many flavors of overboot! Which ones?

I am also interested in something that can work with trail runners and accommodate snowshoes and micro spikes."

I use the FB Light Energy TR overboots with trail runners and snowshoes. I'm not sure if I'd hike in them with microspikes or not. The bottoms are protected by the snowshoes but they'd be exposed with micro spikes. We get enough snow here that once winter starts, it's snowshoes or skis for me. They're pretty thin but I've been out as low as -17 with just a normal thickness wool sock and my feet were fine. But I keep moving.

https://www.40below.com/products_detail.php?ProductID=13

[Travis B.]

Is that -17F or Celsius?

[BlackHatGuy]

When I did my Michigan trip last winter (snowshoeing on a frozen but mostly snow covered Lake Superior, and then snowshoeing through deep snow [snowshoes sinking 8-10" in the snow with each step]), I wore: non-GTX trail runners sized up 1 full size (9.5 instead of 8.5, and double E width instead of regular width) with aerogel insoles, VBL socks, winter mid-weight wool socks, and the FB Light Energy TR overboots.

My shoes never got wet. My feet never got cold, even standing around at lunch break or in the morning. On the way to the trailhead from the car (maybe a mile?) I also wore microspikes with this getup without the snowshoes, worked fine.

Temps during the day were probably 5-10 degrees F. Got snowed on (windy, driving snow) all day one day.

FWIW.

[Randy Nelson]

"Is that -17F or Celsius?"

Fahrenheit thankfully. :) I'm pretty temperature tolerant (snowshoeing at -17, playing golf at 115, no problem) but that's about as cold as I'd prefer to be out in.

I remember being surprised at how comfortable my feet were. I wear really thick socks and Sorel Caribous when clearing my driveway after it snows and if it gets down below 15 or so, my feet get cold. And I think they're rated to something like -20. Although being on asphalt instead of snow probably makes a difference.

I could probably go quite a bit lower using Doug's setup. But I don't have an extra set of over sized trail runners just for winter. It doesn't get that cold here normally.

[Travis B.]

The general consensus seems to be that the Forty Below overboots serve their purpose well. I think the barrier for me is the price. Being in Canada, by the time the shipping costs and dollar conversion is taken into consideration i'm probably looking at about $200 for a pair of neoprene booties. I think i'll just have to suck it up and bite the bullet though, because there don't seem to be any other serious contenders. I'll just have to stick with my big winter boots when ice fishing or find a solution to dealing with overflow.

Thanks guys…

[JP]

–

[Jim Colten]

So I found an acceptable(to me) price and pulled the trigger on a pair of Neos Trekker overboots.

First impressions:

1. not terribly light … 18.1oz each shoe compared to 17.8oz for size 14 Inov-8 390 GTX and 25 oz for a single Northern Lights Tundra snowshoe.
2. the fit is true to the sizing table (use length/width measurements, not shoe size). My shoe length is at the max for Neos size XXL and another 1/8 inch of shoe length would have been problematic.
3. as you will see in the photo, there is plenty girth in the uppers for getting on over other footwear
4. with my shoe at the max dimensions for XXL there is NOT room for the CCF insoles that Neos sells.
5. what might not be obvious in the photo is the the vertical room in the toe area is just adequate for those size 14's … just slightly snug (my oversized shoes are 2.5 inches tall in the toe area)
6. cinching the instep strap holds the boot nicely in place when walking around the house
7. The velcro top closure and shock cord up there kept the top up during my in home test

In response to a PM question, Eric B reported that they serve well as gaiters.

Would they fit over FB overboots? I can't say … there might well be enough girth to get them pulled over the FB's but I'd be worried about the toe area height.

Will I keep them? Decisions, decisions … still on the fence. The noticeable weight is an obstacle. I've been spoiled by getting used to light footwear these last several years.

But I definitely want some sort of overboot and my MYOG project list is SO large;-)

[Travis B.]

Hey Jim,

Thanks for the information. I continue to go back and forth and after trying a pair of xl NEOS on in the store I'm not sure that FB overboots would fit underneath. The toe height was exactly what my concern was as well. I'm now leaning towards just picking up the FB overboots for active duty and sticking with my big winter boots when it comes to ice fishing. At least, for now.

It's really quite difficult keeping the weight down when trying to combine active and static activities in the winter. I just can't stand having to haul my big winter boots in the sled just to put on once we get to fishing, and I can't wear them while moving or my feet get too hot and then end up freezing when we are sitting around. Such a tough life!

[Dustin Short]

Would over boots like the Neos with CCF insole combined with a big puffy down slippers not work? You may need to hack together some extra ground insulation but I imagine it could work out pretty decently for static activities like ice fishing. Should be considerably less weight too using 750fp or better down slippers

[Andy F]

Jim,

If you want to experiment more, try a Steger mukliner or a set of nested ones inside the overshoe along with the foam insole instead of wearing a shoe. Use some spare wool socks to take up space if necessary.

I use a single mukliner inside a Tingley rubber overboot for my < 10F footwear. My foot moves around more than I'd prefer, but it works ok.

[Jim Colten]

From Dustin> Would over boots like the Neos with CCF insole combined with a big puffy down slippers not work?

That is a possibility. We'd definitely want more than a 3/8 CCF on the bottom for standing around. Perhaps two foam insoles? Or stand on a sit pad sized CCF.

From Andy> If you want to experiment more, try a Steger mukliner or a set of nested ones inside the overshoe along with the foam insole instead of wearing a shoe. Use some spare wool socks to take up space if necessary.

Also a possibility for static activities. I'm not so sure I'd like that with snowshoe bindings cinched down, which I know you know is needed in very deep snow.

Another possibility for static time is to do what indigenous seal hunters did when waiting at a breathing hole for hours and we do to slow freezing in water bottles overnight … wrap feet (or bottles) in something and cover with loose snow … it is good insulation at the kind of temps Travis will be dealing with. Perhaps a large (huge) stuff sack, a circle of CCF inside on the bottom and a CCF sleep pad rolled inside for walls. Feet inside, cinch the drawstring around legs, bury in snow. Downright toasty by northern Canada standards.

[JP]

–

[Bob Moulder]

@Doug I >>with aerogel insoles, VBL socks, winter mid-weight wool socks, and the FB Light Energy TR overboots.

Which VBL socks?

[Eric Blumensaadt]

I have had a pair of original NEOS for over 14 years. At first I used them to wade through Erie, PA snow to get to my car or shovel out my plowed-in driveway but later they were mainly emergency boots I carried in my car in winter. I put a felt insole and a felt pac liner in them with moulded insole for arch support.

Along with CCF diver's light neoprene sox as a nice warm VBL and a pair of thin polypro liner sox they worked very well for snowshoeing. Minus 5 F. was the coldest they have been used and I was very comfortable then, even standing around for an hour at a lunch stop.

Finally the toe caps have begun to crack from ozone exposure so I'll coat them with Shoe Goo and try to eek out another few years form them. And then, yep, buy another pair to replace them.

[Travis B.]

Lots of good advice here. After much deliberation I decided to take the frivolous approach. I'm found a pair of NEO Trekker's for sale in town and picked them up. I also just placed an order on a pair of the forty below simple slippers and light energy overboots. I've decided I'm going to spend this winter trying out different combinations to see what works for me.

I'll be sure to report back the results.

Cheers…

[Bob Moulder]

An option that looks useful for my current footwear:

http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=32445286&cp=3677336.12811708.3696538

I could use these with my Hitec fabric boots down to about 15F with no problems, and somewhat below 0F with Vasque Snowblime.

I like the *idea* of trail runners, but in the snow I prefer much stiffer-soled footwear. Very stiff (rigid) soles are IMO more efficient for walking on snow and ice. Actually, if I could find a 20-oz plastic double boot (rigid last, zero flex) with a little rocker in the sole I would be very happy. (yeah, dream on!) It's hard to get a plastic boot set-up that is comfortable in all situations, but once you do they are the best things on Earth in winter.

Anyway, it helps to get the neurons bouncing on this topic.

[Christian Edstrom]

I have to admit, I am tempted to try the Teva Chair 5 boots as a back-country hiking option. I wear a 9.5 dress shoe and a 10.5 running shoe, and tried the Teva Chair 5s this weekend.

With a liner sock, a VBL, and a wool sock, I'd need a size 13 or so, but then I'd have plenty of room for the socks inside the 250g Thinsulate liner, and could add a plastic bag between the liner and the outer boot as well as needed. Add to that that they're very very very light, and suddenly they're sort of interesting. At least so long as the 250g removeable liner stays dry – because you could then continue to use that in the sleeping bag.

[Bob Moulder]

Christian, those look very interesting!

Where did you try them on — LLBean at Ridge Hill?

[Christian Edstrom]

LL Bean at Danbruy Fair.

Last year's model is available at STP, too, for $69.00. I just took a flyer on last year's model in size 13. If that sock combination is too much, I'll use thinner socks and add a felt insole. There is NO stock insulating insole – just the 250g liner on top of plastic insole.

All in all, they seem like a great idea, sort of poorly executed. But I'm not buying Jörn or Lundhags boots this year, so I am going to see if I can make these into something useful for our local climate. If not, it'll at least give some insight into other winter footwear ideas. If you want to have a look, drop me a line and we can arrange. I'd love to see your Duomid, for what it's worth!

FWIW, where I grew up in (very wet) northern Sweden, all boots use closed-cell rubber bottoms with leather tops. You vary insulation by season. In this country, all pac boots seem to have very soft squishy rubber bottoms, like Bean Boots. Are Schnees better in this regard?

e.g. Lundhags Scout:

[Bob Moulder]

Thanks for the info. I checked LLBean Yonkers (Ridge hill) and they don't have them in stock. For any kind of winter boot I'd definitely want to try them on. I hate to ship stuff back and forth. I got those OR Huron gaiters and definitely want to give those a try first.

I am doing the Mid State Trail (PA) hike later this week 11/12-16 and will be ready for another Harriman or Catskill trip early Dec. Maybe we can put something simple together then? Hey, maybe we'll have some snow by that time!

[Author]

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