bivy blizzards

[dirtbag]

I currently use a bivy/tarp combo and I really really love it. I am considering going just bivy this coming winter, runners up between Borah gear and MLD all season bivy. Either way I decide to go I have a question for those of you that have been going this route for some time. Have you ever been above tree line and bivied overnight during a severe snow storm? I doubt I will get myself in that situation (yet), but the thought of it intrigues me pretty much. I love winter, snow, blizzards, snowshoeing, winter camping..The whole shabang. All other gear aside, I'm just curious about your thoughts on riding out a snow storm in a proper bivy. I am expecting lots of snow this winter here in NY and I am expecting to be sleeping outside with my bivy many many nights.

[Charley White]

–"Either way I decide to go I have a question for those of you that have been going this route for some time."

Will mangle your sentence to say it applies to me as something I did some time ago. Only a couple of times. Similarly, I had the notion to move fast, light and camp where the camping was good. Then I encountered a snow storm. Setting up the bivy burrito without any shelter in heavy falling snow was an exercise is getting snow all over me and my stuff. Then, once in the bag, there is only one thing you can do. Lie there and not move. Tent-bound, you can idly futz with your gear. Only salvation would be a short storm, or get out and devote time & effort to build a snowcave. Went back to my 1lb 4oz BetaLight. IMO bivvy sacks also place your condensation problems right where there is no dodging them. All together, I think they have their place but as an all-conditions primary-residence too much like a….bivouac. :)

[Jerry Adams]

Same thing with steady rain. My gear gets wet when I'm setting up or packing back up. Stuck lying down until it stops raining.

[dirtbag]

So is it suffice to say I should bring my patrol shelter along also?

[David Thomas]

One of my concerns would be dealing with snow drifts which is a function of wind direction. In my area, I tend to get snow during low-wind to wind-from-the-east conditions. Then, within 12 hours, I get a north wind that redeposits the snow. Without a full tent or Megamid sort of shelter, it would be hard to pitch a tarp so as to deal with snow drifts from multiple directions. But maybe your winds are less varied or more predictable.

A few pointers from an Arctic Engineering class: 90% of the mass of wind-blown snow travels within an inch of the ground. If you create a snow-fence-type (rock wall, existing trees, stacked branches) structure up wind, you can cause most all of the blown snow to settle out before it piles up against your tarp or gets deposited at the edges of your tarp.

[Mitch Chesney]

Joe, look on YouTube for something along the lines of "survived mount Shasta storm". A guy went up Shasta with what looks like a Hilleberg Alto (or similar design) and gets completely decimated, forced to abandon. Now I'm not saying you'll be climbing any 14ers but a similar situation could happen in any blizzard… But you would have the option to descend 4,000ft to dry earth.

[Roger Caffin]

I suspect you do not yet know what a serious storm is like in the snow country :-)

Well … do it for one night near some good shelter or trailhead. Only way to really find out.

Would I try it? No way in a pink fit!

Cheers

[dirtbag]

I live in NY. I am pretty sure I know what a good snow storm or blizzard is like. Have I camped in a blizzard using a bivy? No I have not. Hence for my question to THOSE who have. And yes, good advice, I will try it as much as possible starting in my back yard first..

[Bob Moulder]

Joe, I recall bivying 3 times in the Whites, all below tree line. Moonstone GTX bivy and a good WM down bag.

Cold (-25F) with light snow and almost no wind – no problem.

No snow, Cold and very windy. Problem. No shelter to accomplish necessary tasks.

Snow storm (~18-inch maybe more), not so cold (+15F), very windy – pretty much ended my open bivy aspirations.

IMOH, some shelter is needed, whether rock overhang, snow cave, tarp/trench, etc.

[dirtbag]

Do you think a tarp such as the patrol shelter (cuben) would work in snow and wind or am I pipe dreaming? I have a black diamond bibler fitzroy that I could use, but the dang thing weighs so much and I think that would be overkill for here in NY or around NY. Again, I'm not concerned about temperature and staying warm, I'm just trying to figure out shelter in these conditions. Like I said, I don't mind being confined to small space over night, long as I can lay down..that's all I really need to sleep or kill time. I get that the bivy thing alone sucks in wind and snow/rain..As far as getting in and out..and keeping snow/rain out upon entry/exit. I thought about that after reading these posts, so yeah, I guess I will scratch that idea of just using a bivy..but now I'm wondering if the patrol shelter would work or do I need to go a different route here altogether?

[Mitch Chesney]

Joe, a bivvy should be a supplemental shelter in winter – meaning you should first construct a primary protection and let the bivvy protect from spindrift and melting snow. A snow trench is what you're looking for – probably more practical of natural winter shelters in the northeastern states. It's literally a long hole dug into packed snow and a tarp lain across the top, secured with snow banks or stakes. Construct the trench about 1.5x as wide as your bag (not the pad, because the bag spills over 20" and you don't want too much touching the trench walls). Dig a long hole the length of your pad lower than your sleeping platform for a place to put your feet (and a cold sink) and so you can sit on your pad to cook. You can dig little shelves if the snow is packed enough. This gets you out of the wind, out of the snow, and allows use of your bivvy without the aforementioned problems.

A similar idea is used as the basecamp kitchen on many mountain trips… a double-bench area is dug out and a floorless tent or mid placed overtop. Many guides use this as their sleeping quarters after the clients have retired to their heavy basecamp tents.

It's almost as good as a snow cave but takes half the time and energy. You also are less likely to get wet since you're digging down, not into the snowpack.

[dirtbag]

Mitch, crazy video. Ok, so you have all proved the point. I guess when the time comes and I do get my oppurtunity to do a serious winter summit, I will be best served carrying my 7lb. Fitzroy. The bivy would suck, as would a tarp. I got the Fitzroy a year or 2 ago, for a great price, with the hopes of getting prepared for such a trip. I was having second thoughts on it after useing my bivy/tarp combo so much lately, thinking I could lose that 7 lb weight. I now see that that 7 lbs would be a worthwhile 7 lbs to carry in such conditions. The Fitzroy is a proven tent and that is why I grabbed it when I had the chance. Once again, this is why these forums are so valuable. Another year of studying, testing and learning and I hope to be ready to do some serious winter ascents with someone who has experience. thanks again BPL..

[Rick M]

del

[dirtbag]

Yes, you are right..The fitzroy is not that heavy. I guess the fact of the matter is that I got so caught up in the UL scenario that I was looking for a way to cut weight in places I shouldn't. On top of that, I already own it, so I am ahead of the game on a big piece of gear needed to get where I want to be.

[Bob Moulder]

The Fitzroy is bomber… but never again will I carry something like that. Even the Eldorado was too much, so I sold it. Stephenson 2RS is okay and used to be THE wicked-light option, but still not good with heavy snow. The MH Trango 2 was a haven for two (back in the day when 2-person tents could actually accommodate 2 people!), but way heavy and a bitch to pitch when frostbite was very close on your heels.

Just beginning my experience with the MLD Duomid for winter. Gonna ease into it this fall and winter as I fine-tune my winter UL kit.

[Paul McLaughlin]

Even if it's not snowing, just having a place out of the wind can mean the difference between a pleasant camp and an ordeal. Bivying in the snow can be great in good weather – if the trip is one or two nights and the forecast is perfect I'd do it, as long as I know I'd be below treeline so I can get out of the wind. But mostly I wouldn't. A small pyramid style shelter is so light and will do the deed.

[Tipi Walter]

Yes, I've cowboy camped many nights at low temps during blizzards and used different sorts of bivies and it's a fine system for one or two nights but the system collapses on a long uninterrupted winter trip of 10 to 20 days.

The whole point of backpacking is Managing Discomfort—which means: Keeping your sleeping bag dry. A lone winter bivy has the tendency to wet/freeze your bag shell which mounts up after several nights. Plus, a foot of heavy snow on top of you all night long produces some incredible condensation results.

Ergo a shelter cover of some kind is needed—unless you're using a properly tanned buffalo robe but then it's not ultralight.

I spent a whole winter in a bivy sack in 1981 in the mountains of North Carolina and went thru some terrible snowstorms and high winds. I suffered from wet sleeping gear of course. And w/o a bivy sack, well, a cold wind rips right thru the best of down bags in bedroll mode.

Now it's so much easier mentally and physically to endure tough conditions with a subzero WM down bag, a damn good tent and a comfy high Rvalue pad. I guess I could go back to cowboy camping in the snow if I was fighting the Wehrmacht coming thru Russia in the winter of '42, but otherwise why bother?

[Franco Darioli]

" A guy went up Shasta with what looks like a Hilleberg Alto (Akto) (or similar design) ",/b>
Not that similar (to me…) but to be fair most non multi pole/ geodesic designs or small cross pole tents would have probably failed .
It was an Alps Mountaineering Mystique 2.

[dirtbag]

So now I am going to pick your brains. Living in NY, I would like to get past the Cats and spend some time in the Daks. Would I be ok using an UL cuben mid? Say solomid or along those lines? Any recommendations from experience? I'm thinking winter and plenty of snow. Mind you I don't need a palace as I am plenty comfortable sleeping in my bivy with my Patrol shelter if needed, which I do use year round..I just have not ventured hi up as the Daks or done any serious winter (heavy snow) ascents in the Cats. But I want to hence I am here trying to figure out what would work for those conditions.

[Bob Moulder]

Joe, I remembered reading this some time back and it spooked me with regard to Cuben use in winter. Took me a while to search it out, but it is fairly recent informaton. Maybe this is no problem at all in actual practice for a Cuben mid (HMG is based in NH, after all!), but I have had a couple of experiences with materials in extreme cold that make me a little gun-shy about this. (one of them occurring in Maine at -25F in a stiff gale at night while trying to pitch my Eldorado and discovering that synthetic rubber shock cords lose their elasticity, unlike natural rubber… grrr…)

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=89474&startat=40

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(Lawson Kline) The reason you don't see more cuben mountaineering tents is because of the construction techniques that would have to be used.. The shelter would have to be both bonded and sewn as bonding alone doesn't work in cold weather. The adhesive looses all its strength and the shelter will just fall apart.

I had a problem with my drybags in cold weather. People were stuffing their down bags in them and then going out in cold weather mountaineering, snow shoeing, skiing, hunting, etc and the seams were failing. The down bag would literately push the seam apart… So I paid 3M to test the problem. Well they found that ALL roll adhesives loose about 50%- 90% of their bond strength under 0F. Put it this way. 9485PC which is the adhesive that Cubic Tech use to recommend before selling their own, and most likely the adhesive most companies are still using has a T-Peel bond strength of 90.4oz/in at room temp and 12.5oz/in at 0F..

So the problem can be fixed by sewing the seams after bonding, BUT then your sewing through a non-woven material which creates a whole set of new problems…..<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

[Mitch Chesney]

That's interesting, Bob. Is is possible to weld cuben rather than adhere or stitch?

[Andy F]

I'm switching to bivy-only this winter. Below the treeline, enough natural shelter to block wind-blown snow is easy enough to find or quickly construct. Above the treeline, you have to rely on existing topography or snow structures like trenches and walls.

Some of this depends on the type of bivy you're using and your sleeping position. I'm using a large GoreTex bivy which has a top flap which I can just throw over my head, leaving a space open on the leeward side for ventilation. As a stomach and side sleeper, this works great. I did it many years ago in a trash bag bivy in a cold rain. A back sleeper would probably feel suffocated with the flap right over the face.

[Andy F]

"A few pointers from an Arctic Engineering class: 90% of the mass of wind-blown snow travels within an inch of the ground. If you create a snow-fence-type (rock wall, existing trees, stacked branches) structure up wind, you can cause most all of the blown snow to settle out before it piles up against your tarp or gets deposited at the edges of your tarp."

Very interesting fact and useful tip there David!

[Bob Moulder]

>>>That's interesting, Bob. Is is possible to weld cuben rather than adhere or stitch?<<<

Mitch, I don't know — I was quoting Lawson Kline there and his direct experience as a manufacturer. Nice little discussion about the challenges of designing/making Cuben winter shelter.

But the 3M data on regarding the tape's properties in extreme cold is something to be concerned about with a winter shelter!

Many years ago when I was designing a base for white gas stoves I learned that thin Teflon strips will crumble at very low temps…

[dirtbag]

So are we thinking here that cuben tarps might fail in winter conditions in the NE? Because honestly, I am at the point where I think I will use my current MLD Patrol shelter (cuben) with my katabatic bristlecone bivy.

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